View Poll Results: Did Philip II unite the Greek city states?

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Thread: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

  1. #1
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Terrifically sorry to waste your time gentlemen, but I have a load of Greeks telling me that Philip II united the Greek city states and accusing me of mental illnesses when I disagree with them. Was wondering if we couldn't settle the matter with a show of hands.

    In reality neither Philip nor Alexander united the Greek city states. In fact the both failed to unite the Greek mainland (it wouldn't be politically united until thousands of years later). Sparta notably remained independent and neutral, controlling Laconia. Philip threatened to invade leading to the famous exchange, "If I invade your territory I will be a right dick-head", the Spartan reply being "If". Alexander would attempt to show up the Spartan's independence by sending Persian loot back to Greece with the message "Taken by all the Greeks except the Spartans".

    The answer seems obvious to all but Greek nationalists.

  2. #2

    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    The Macedonian Empire disintegrated after Alexander, so noone of the selfish and rebellious poleis wanted to stick under the Antigonids anymore later.
    "Romans not only easily conquered those who fought by cutting, but mocked them too. For the cut, even delivered with force, frequently does not kill, when the vital parts are protected by equipment and bone. On the contrary, a point brought to bear is fatal at two inches; for it is necessary that whatever vital parts it penetrates, it is immersed. Next, when a cut is delivered, the right arm and flank are exposed. However, the point is delivered with the cover of the body and wounds the enemy before he sees it."

    - Flavius Vegetius Renatus (in Epitoma Rei Militari, ca. 390)

  3. #3
    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Absolutely not. He (and Alexander) may well have acted as Hegemon over the majority of the mainland Greek world, but by no means was this anything like a united state. Indeed, such a political entity was basically an antithesis to Greek political thought.

    Yet another fragile alliance at best.
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  4. #4
    zznɟ ǝɥʇ's Avatar Centurio Primus Pilus
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    See above. No.
    we are beautiful

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  5. #5
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    He never got Sparta, and he didn't truley unite them as much as he conquered them.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  6. #6
    Eastern Roman's Avatar Yuzo
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Already 3 answers, having nothing in common with
    Sparta notably remained independent
    A dead enemy always smells good - Alus Vitellus


    formerly known as karakalos10

  7. #7
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Here's one of the Greek nationalists now. Don't use facts or you'll spook him.

  8. #8
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quelled for a space, but unite hardly...

    The answer seems obvious to all but Greek nationalists.
    Although to be fair wasn't this view (i.e. a good thing Greeks needed a strong hand to unite them) quite popular with German scholars around the time Prussia ‘united’ Germany…
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  9. #9
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Well to show how Philip conquered rather than united the Greek City States, one merely has to look at the actions of Thebes and Athens upon his death.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  10. #10
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    Well to show how Philip conquered rather than united the Greek City States, one merely has to look at the actions of Thebes and Athens upon his death.
    Even though I do not believe Philip united Greece, I would still consider conquering them all uniting them. The Kingdom of Italy was united in part by conquest, after all.

  11. #11
    Eastern Roman's Avatar Yuzo
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Stalins Ghost View Post
    Absolutely not. He (and Alexander) may well have acted as Hegemon over the majority of the mainland Greek world, but by no means was this anything like a united state. Indeed, such a political entity was basically an antithesis to Greek political thought.

    Yet another fragile alliance at best.
    wow you people write fast.

    and of course i agree with that

    not with just this as proof
    Sparta notably remained independent


    Quote Originally Posted by SARMATIAN LEADER View Post
    First of all no one talked about uniting the Greeks politically once again this is one of your own special conclusions.
    A dead enemy always smells good - Alus Vitellus


    formerly known as karakalos10

  12. #12
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by karakalos10 View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by SARMATION LEADER
    First of all no one talked about uniting the Greeks politically once again this is one of your own special conclusions.
    Quote Originally Posted by SARMATIAN LEADER View Post
    Phillip like it or not managed for the first time to unite all Greeks under one banner and a common cause and for the first time introducted in a primitive form the term of state.
    Please, Karakalos... I don't want to pwn you but I will if I have to.

  13. #13
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Even though I do not believe Philip united Greece, I would still consider conquering them all uniting them. The Kingdom of Italy was united in part by conquest, after all..
    I don’t think the analogy is apt however. The revolts by democracies seem to me to suggest Philips’ League of Corinth did not hold much sway with the masses. Philip was rather a friend of oligarchy and less foreign than Persia so I would say it might be fair to argue he did unite Greek Aristocrats..

    Also wouldn’t the equivalent have been rather a conquest of Italy by the Piedmontese followed by a league of Italy with lots of nominally independent states up and down the boot?
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  14. #14
    Eastern Roman's Avatar Yuzo
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    ?
    No one talked about uniting the Greeks as a united state.
    A dead enemy always smells good - Alus Vitellus


    formerly known as karakalos10

  15. #15
    Ferrets54's Avatar Praefectus Fabrum
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    I don’t think the analogy is apt however. The revolts by democracries seem to me to suggest Philips’ League of Corinth did not hold much sway with the masses. Also wouldn’t the equivalent have been rather a conquest of Italy by the Piedmontese
    Followed by a league of Italy with lots of nominally independent states up and down the boot?
    Of course not but is the consent of the masses necessary for a monarchical state?

  16. #16
    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Even though I do not believe Philip united Greece, I would still consider conquering them all uniting them. The Kingdom of Italy was united in part by conquest, after all.
    However, after the conquest of Italy it was united into a single state and the people were united. While under Philip, the Greek Cities he conquered were placed in a league and called independent and their people were not united.
    “The nation that will insist upon drawing a broad line of demarcation between the fighting man and the thinking man is liable to find its fighting done by fools and its thinking by cowards.”

    —Sir William Francis Butler

  17. #17
    Eastern Roman's Avatar Yuzo
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by Farnan View Post
    However, after the conquest of Italy it was united into a single state and the people were united. While under Philip, the Greek Cities he conquered were placed in a league and called independent and their people were not united.
    A dead enemy always smells good - Alus Vitellus


    formerly known as karakalos10

  18. #18
    conon394's Avatar hoi polloi
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Of course not but is the consent of the masses necessary for a monarchical state?
    Even a monarchy requires some acquiescence on the part of its people.

    But I guess what I thought was more important is that Philip's settlement was rather tenuous it was not as inclusive as the Athenian Empire, and nothing at all like Roman solidification after the Latin War.

    The demos in states where they had a voice were quelled for the moment but certainly did not see themselves as part of Philips’ new thing. That seems to me to say not united…
    IN PATROCINIVM SVB Dromikaites

    'One day when I fly with my hands - up down the sky, like a bird'

    But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, shall join together at the latter day and cry all 'We died at such a place; some swearing, some crying for surgeon, some upon their wives left poor behind them, some upon the debts they owe, some upon their children rawly left.

    Hyperides of Athens: We know, replied he, that Antipater is good, but we (the Demos of Athens) have no need of a master at present, even a good one.

  19. #19
    Eastern Roman's Avatar Yuzo
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    Quote Originally Posted by conon394 View Post
    That seems to me to say not united…
    Doesn't that seems to was a thing like United States of Greece
    A dead enemy always smells good - Alus Vitellus


    formerly known as karakalos10

  20. #20
    hellheaven1987's Avatar Praefectus Cohortis
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    Default Re: Did Philip II of Macedon unite the Greek city states?

    It depends what you mean "unite".

    From Philip's intention, it seems that he was more focusing on creating a "League of Nations" for Greeks rather than united Greeks into a new nation; we don't know what was he really thinking about, but from what he was planning (an expedition against Persia) he probably realized that only new conquest could continue his League of Nations.

    For Alexander, he probably also realized that; but his intention of attacking Persia was not that simple from my personal view. Perhaps he believed once Persia was his those Greeks would slowly absorb into his empire by force and diplomacy.

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