Guilds!?

[kekesvar.bingos]

How are you going to handle guilds in your AWEsome mod? will they be similar to those in medieval and will boost your armor/weapons and/or provide you with some uniqe unit (e.g. vestal virgins) and will they be available to all factions? what about this: few kinds of philosofical schools (epicureanism, pythagoreanism, stoicism maybe...) which would provide different kinds of bonuses for your cities and uniqe characteristics for your generals? this would be available only to greeks/romans... and to settlements with your culture (like 80 percent or more) --- which makes me to ask this: hope the religion wont be handled here in medieval2 way. instead of this you could use EXTENDED GREEK MOD culture system (barbarian, western, eastern culture)... just few sugestion. thans for brilliant work and great previews! you guys ROCKS!

[SigniferOne]

For one, the religion will definitely not be handled in the MTW2 way. What you'll have competing will be cultures -- Roman (Latin) culture, Hellenic culture, Etruscan culture, Gallic culture, etc. And you will build and recruit almost all your buildings and units in accordance with the level of culture in the province. For instance you can bet that you won't be building Principes in any recently-conquered province, and a lot of your effort will have to go towards Romanizing the province and making its inhabitants believe in Roman culture, only after which will you be able to train some of them to fight in Roman fashion. Same with the Greeks and their hoplites, same with Gallic warbands, with the Phoenicians, etc.

Spreading of culture will not be an easy affair. For one you will not have any "priests" that you can send to convert another people, and you won't be able to mass-produce them, swamp some province, and convert it instantly. Any such MTW2 tricks are all out -- priests are completely gone. Converting a province's native culture will be an arduous affair, where you'll have to build lots of buildings, stage cultural affairs, generally expend a lot of time and effort to change a population's mindset towards yours.

Finally, though this feature is still under discussion -- there will be some benefits from a region not having your culture 100%. For instance if the Gauls conquer a Greek province, they obviously won't be able to build hoplites, and won't be able to build their warbands until a lot of acclimatization. So you'll try to convert from a hellenic culture to the gallic one as fast as possible. Yet, if you establish your cultural dominance but not extirpate the hellenic culture yet, you may convince some of the old hoplites to come out and fight for you, maybe in some helleno-gallic equipment, but still with a hoplite shield and shieldwall. Maybe a few of such special units will be recruitable as bodyguards for your general, until the hellenic culture is extirpated completely and people forget how to fight in the hellenic fashion.

[kekesvar.bingos]

thanks for the answer, SigniferOne, and thanks for all the amazing work! now.. what about the guilds?

[SigniferOne]

Guilds are still under discussion, since they're a fairly ancillary addition to the mod. Examples could be some philosophical schools in the Greek areas, as per your suggestion, a guild of musicians in Rome, which had a strike in the 4th century BC so we know it was there, etc. In short, these guilds will be very culture related, and most likely will not be uniformly available to all factions. Gallic guild, maybe some metalmakers or something, would be very different from guilds in Rome or in Syracuse, where a metalsmith guild may be present but with vastly different effects.

Most guilds will also not have the simple and fairly uninteresting bonuses as in MTW2. For instance Greeks had a discovery of scientific medicine in this time period; this means that a medical building will not be available to anyone but them, but that even the hellenic player won't be able to build it whenever and wherever he wants to. It will be subject to certain preconditions, and once a hospital "guild" building appears in a city if you meet those preconditions, the city will then begin acquiring momentous health benefits. Additionally a physician may now appear in the retinue of your generals, vastly improving his survival rate after battles, and raising the recovery rate of all troops in his army. I.e. 50 out of 100 soldiers in a unit may fall during a battle, but 20 of those may avoid death due to timely intervention of a scientific doctor, meaning that 30 soldiers actually end up dying, instead of 50. Thus science will be of great help to the Greeks who are otherwise very outnumbered by the other nations on the map.

[Basil 11]

Sounds great!

[kekesvar.bingos]

Guilds are still under discussion, since they're a fairly ancillary addition to the mod. Examples could be some philosophical schools in the Greek areas, as per your suggestion, a guild of musicians in Rome, which had a strike in the 4th century BC so we know it was there, etc. In short, these guilds will be very culture related, and most likely will not be uniformly available to all factions. Gallic guild, maybe some metalmakers or something, would be very different from guilds in Rome or in Syracuse, where a metalsmith guild may be present but with vastly different effects.

Most guilds will also not have the simple and fairly uninteresting bonuses as in MTW2. For instance Greeks had a discovery of scientific medicine in this time period; this means that a medical building will not be available to anyone but them, but that even the hellenic player won't be able to build it whenever and wherever he wants to. It will be subject to certain preconditions, and once a hospital "guild" building appears in a city if you meet those preconditions, the city will then begin acquiring momentous health benefits. Additionally a physician may now appear in the retinue of your generals, vastly improving his survival rate after battles, and raising the recovery rate of all troops in his army. I.e. 50 out of 100 soldiers in a unit may fall during a battle, but 20 of those may avoid death due to timely intervention of a scientific doctor, meaning that 30 soldiers actually end up dying, instead of 50. Thus science will be of great help to the Greeks who are otherwise very outnumbered by the other nations on the map.

that´s EXACTLY what I was expecting!!! Thanks a lot and hope you will implement all of your ideas without much restrictions! +rep rep rep

[kaikayne]

For one, the religion will definitely not be handled in the MTW2 way. What you'll have competing will be cultures -- Roman (Latin) culture, Hellenic culture, Etruscan culture, Gallic culture, etc. And you will build and recruit almost all your buildings and units in accordance with the level of culture in the province. For instance you can bet that you won't be building Principes in any recently-conquered province, and a lot of your effort will have to go towards Romanizing the province and making its inhabitants believe in Roman culture, only after which will you be able to train some of them to fight in Roman fashion. Same with the Greeks and their hoplites, same with Gallic warbands, with the Phoenicians, etc.
priests are completely gone. Converting a province's native culture will be an arduous affair, where you'll have to build lots of buildings, stage cultural affairs, generally expend a lot of time and effort to change a population's mindset towards yours.

So its just like the Brittania Kingdoms campaign. just a LOT harder

[SigniferOne]

Is that good or bad?

[Basil 11]

So its just like the Brittania Kingdoms campaign. just a LOT harder

And much better!
In my opinion, this is good, SigniferOne

[kaikayne]

its good! there will be much more diversity in PI than in brittania. Brittania had just 5 factions that were actually very similar in culture. PI will have nations from all parts of the world, and its own version of the Mongol invasion (Pyrrus)...i cant wait for this mod. thats why i check this forum everyday... good luck Signifer One!

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Why not have priests?

You don't have to call them priests, for example, for each culture have, say a Hellenic Philosopher, a Celtic Bard, a Carthaginian Merchant Prince, a Roman Senator, an Etruscan Poet etc.

[RomaVictor6969]

that is a really good idea +rep!

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Why thank you, I try!

I just want to help out because I can't wait to get my hands on an awesome Ancient-era mod, and if I can help make it good with a few interesting innovations, all the better!

[SigniferOne]

Why not have priests?

You don't have to call them priests, for example, for each culture have, say a Hellenic Philosopher, a Celtic Bard, a Carthaginian Merchant Prince, a Roman Senator, an Etruscan Poet etc.

One of the problems is that this approach enforces uniformity between factions (we have our priest, you have yours), when we want to implement the asymmetry and absence of uniformity between factions. For instance did an "Etruscan poet" travel into Samnite territory to preach about virtues of etruscan culture? No, not at all. But did Etruscans spread their culture at all? Yes. How did they do it? By having gladiatorial fights, by paintings, by athletic contests, and by imposing a semi-feudal social structure on the city they would conquer. Is this more time consuming and expensive to build buildings than just to an 'etruscan poet'? Yes. Is it also more defensive than offensive (since you can't construct buildings in an enemy province but only in what's already yours)? Yes. But tell me, is there anyone here who would exchange the process of Etruscan cultural conversion from using gladiatorial barracks and a painting studio, to a generic etruscan priest?

The same goes for Romans and their buildings, although they have a different process: their prerequisite for any further building is a Forum, which is built fast and is really cheap. And yet this forum has a large conversion bonus; along with a few specifically Roman buildings which work on the mind of the conquered to impress them with Roman culture: the Campus Martius, the Senate chamber (isn't republican politics wonderful, the conquered asks himself), a few others. Thus by simply following their building tree the Romans automatically already engage in cultural conversion, and since the prerequisite Forum is cheap and is easily available in every settlement, they will be able to assimilate and spread their culture all over Italy faster than Etruscans ever could. They will also have senators that have a small cultural conversion bonus; people wouldn't necessarily jump to want to be Roman merely from seeing a Senator, but they would definitely be impressed, hence the small bonus. And the Senators will be used to elect generals, if I can get the danged script to work.

The Greeks will have philosophers travelling through southern italy, loaded up to full rank 10 with conversion power for hellenic culture. But they will not be controllable by the greek player, but instead by a separate purely AI faction, and will travel on random journeys throughout southern Italy, so that if you're non-hellenic living down there you better pray those philosophers won't pick your area as their destination, because they'll infuse skepticism and show the beauties of Greek philosophizing and turn your people away from your own parochial culture values.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

Thats...not how I'd do it.

I was just giving rough examples, as I was just reeling it off the top of my head - no research had been involved.

I don't think an asymmetry in culture-spreading is particularly fair, though, and it'd take forever and a day to do it by border diffusion alone...

[RomaVictor6969]

Another good point, altho i agree with almost everything you say SigniferOne, but on the other hand there was no way that anybody could say that there were not people going and spreading the cultures of there people. In the end a good mix of both should solve the problem I like the idea of lots of buildings helping culture but I would also like to have a form of priest spreading my own aswell.

[SigniferOne]

I don't think an asymmetry in culture-spreading is particularly fair, though, and it'd take forever and a day to do it by border diffusion alone...

The problem is that it wasn't fair in real life either. Not many people wanted Etruscan culture in the 4th century BC; this means that in the game, you will definitely be able to strengthen and enforce yourself through cultural buildings, yet other more dynamic cultures will be able to do it faster and easier.

At the same time it won't be unbalanced either, for Etruscans start with a combined landmass (divided over 3 factions) which is the largest by far of any other faction.

Another good point, altho i agree with almost everything you say SigniferOne, but on the other hand there was no way that anybody could say that there were not people going and spreading the cultures of there people. In the end a good mix of both should solve the problem I like the idea of lots of buildings helping culture but I would also like to have a form of priest spreading my own aswell.

Everybody will not be having a priest, I am sorry. You will not be able to build fifty Phoenician priests, sent them into Latium and have yourself a phoenician province in four turns. The only way you'll be able to spread your Phoenician culture is through trading and dock buildings; and if the game engine allows it your merchants may have a moderate conversion bonus too. There has never been a Celtic Bard going into central italy to 'preach' of Gallic superiority; but it's possible that you'll have a Bard of practically no movement points, so that you will build him deep in Celtic territory and move him a small distance every year throughout Gaul to reinforce Gallic culture against invaders from the outside trying to encroach upon it.

Every culture will have a different method of fighting off cultural invaders, and spreading its own culture on others. It will be asymmetric and unfair, just like in real life.

[Sargon_of_Akkad]

The problem is that it wasn't fair in real life either. Not many people wanted Etruscan culture in the 4th century BC; this means that in the game, you will definitely be able to strengthen and enforce yourself through cultural buildings, yet other more dynamic cultures will be able to do it faster and easier.

At the same time it won't be unbalanced either, for Etruscans start with a combined landmass (divided over 3 factions) which is the largest by far of any other faction.

So? Are you making a game or a history documentary? Surely if a player doesn't put any onus on culture, then yes, it will be very similar to history. But the point is that it isn't identical, otherwise I'd just read a book...

Everybody will not be having a priest, I am sorry. You will not be able to build fifty Phoenician priests, sent them into Latium and have yourself a phoenician province in four turns.

Well then you are neutering sides, unless they don't need cultural percentages to recruit their units.

The only way you'll be able to spread your Phoenician culture is through trading and dock buildings; and if the game engine allows it your merchants may have a moderate conversion bonus too.

Makes sense. I like the merchants doing it.

There has never been a Celtic Bard going into central italy to 'preach' of Gallic superiority; but it's possible that you'll have a Bard of practically no movement points, so that you will build him deep in Celtic territory and move him a small distance every year throughout Gaul to reinforce Gallic culture against invaders from the outside trying to encroach upon it.

...why?? Why be so narrow-minded on the subject? It could be a traveling bard, who's music is appreciated (done by skill obviously), and could be imagined to be requested at courts or taverns, thus exposing the inhabitants to the culture of the Celts.

Every culture will have a different method of fighting off cultural invaders, and spreading its own culture on others. It will be asymmetric and unfair, just like in real life.

As I said, you run the risk of making a bunch of factions just useless. It's a game, not a historical recreation, remember.

[RomaVictor6969]

The problem is that it wasn't fair in real life either. Not many people wanted Etruscan culture in the 4th century BC; this means that in the game, you will definitely be able to strengthen and enforce yourself through cultural buildings, yet other more dynamic cultures will be able to do it faster and easier.

At the same time it won't be unbalanced either, for Etruscans start with a combined landmass (divided over 3 factions) which is the largest by far of any other faction.




Everybody will not be having a priest, I am sorry. You will not be able to build fifty Phoenician priests, sent them into Latium and have yourself a phoenician province in four turns. The only way you'll be able to spread your Phoenician culture is through trading and dock buildings; and if the game engine allows it your merchants may have a moderate conversion bonus too. There has never been a Celtic Bard going into central italy to 'preach' of Gallic superiority; but it's possible that you'll have a Bard of practically no movement points, so that you will build him deep in Celtic territory and move him a small distance every year throughout Gaul to reinforce Gallic culture against invaders from the outside trying to encroach upon it.

Every culture will have a different method of fighting off cultural invaders, and spreading its own culture on others. It will be asymmetric and unfair, just like in real life.

lol just for the record i have never build more then one priest and just made him really pious and sent him to places xD

[SigniferOne]

Well then you are neutering sides, unless they don't need cultural percentages to recruit their units.

This above is all that it comes down to, am I right?

The basic question you have to ask yourself is: why didn't Celts actually find anyone wanting to live their lifestyle on the interior of Italy. We are trying to replicate those same conditions.

It's not that the Celtic culture didn't have certain beauties in it, or that everybody south was more "civilized" than them (some of the mountainous Italic cultures clearly weren't). The reason is that the way Celts spread their culture, the prerequisites that were needed to establish Celtic values in a region, were not easy to establish south of the border. That the only way they could make a region Celtic was first to overrun it, topple all the hostile cultural influences, and then by building their cultural monuments leave the inhabitants no other choice; which is what they did by eradicating the Etruscan civilization of the Po Valley, and making all of it largely Celtic; living amongst ruins of old Etruscan cities.

We are trying to replicate some of these historical factors in the game.