Poll: Main line holder for parthia?

[Suppanut]

As Horse factions like Parthia use more and more infantry as time go by so Post-marian Submod would give them some basic foot soldier after reform as Scythia will get some. Problem is what should main line holder for Parthia? Should it be Persian Archers-Spearmen alone or should be Eastern Heavy Spearmen team up with normal Archer?

So I open to all forumer to decide.:hmmm:

[Zarax]

Archer-spearmen would be the early line holders, the heavy inf plus archers a later/more advanced one.

[Scutarii]

Parthia should get the archers spearmen at the lower-ish barracks levels, maybe with some better low spear units (like sparabara). Then maybe those Companions they used to have? (heavy inf. archers).

[Balikedes]

I also agree with that...but what would the unit size be? Should it remain 80 for a missile unit or upped to 100 because of their use?
I would lean towards keeping them at 80, then when actual spearmen show up they will get 100 men per unit.

[Scutarii]

That sounds good to me....

[LucretiusTC]

Even after the Marian reforms I think the Parthian infantry should be rather secondary and weak comparing to their famed cavalry, the heavy-armed and armoured cataphracts and light brigades of mounted archers. It is said that the Parthians could never occupy conquered countries because they were quite unskilled in siege warfare. This also explains why those Roman-Parthian wars lasted so long.

Facing the long-range fighting tactics of the Parthian armoured cavalry and mounted archers, the Romans started to supplement their armies of heavy and drilled infantry with auxiliary forces of riders and bowmen, thereby increasingly modifying traditional Roman arms and tactics.

Here´s more information:
http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Milita...thian_army.htm

Luc.

[Zarax]

According to the EB roster parthian shouldn't be that weak in infantry either, even though it would be mostly AOR.

[Archbaker]

The way I read the EB roster, most of the Parthian infantry units are very light, and I do tend to trust historical websites more, even if they are not without bias.

As a compromise, I tend to think small unit sizes of 80-100 units sound good. That way the AI would hopefully still rely on cavalry, but be able to field effective infantry for holding a line or taking part in a siege.

[Spartan198]

All.

I like choices.

[LucretiusTC]

One possible way to reform the Parthian infantry is to take some ideas from their successors, The Sassanid Empire (226-651 CE) but we should be careful not to be too Late Ancient or Medieval here.

http://www.cais-soas.com/CAIS/Milita...anian_army.htm
"The (Sasanian) infantry (paygān) consisted of the archers and ordinary footmen. The former were protected "by an oblong curved shield, covered with wickerwork and rawhide" . Advancing in close order, they showered the enemy with storms of arrows. The ordinary footmen were recruited from peasants and received no pay, serving mainly as pages to the mounted warriors; they also attacked walls, excavated mines and looked after the baggage train, their weapons being a spear and a shield."

On the other hand we could give the Parthians a small number of better quality but expansive (non-Parthian) mercenary infantry to the supplement to their cavalry, e.g. something like "Hyrcanian Hillmen". But the infantry should be secondary to the cavalry in the Parthian army even after those Marian reforms.
http://www.europabarbarorum.com/fact...ava_units.html

Luc.

[Suppanut]

Thanks to LucretiusTC suggestion, I take a look on BI Sassanid and found their Levy Spearmen would be useful as 2nd tier unit to replace Heavy Spearmen for Parthia in Poll. This unit is not good, not overpower and low life fodder which draft to hold the line and watch the city while those noble on horse busy in hunting.

This description are from BI.

{levy_spearmen_sassanid} Levy Spearmen

{levy_spearmen_sassanid_descr}
Levy Spearmen are raised from the poorest in society: at best, they are men taken into the army in lieu of paying their taxes. They are given a spear, some rudimentary training, and told to obey!\n\nThey are reasonably capable enough on defence, but shouldn't be relied upon to fight for long against professional heavy infantry. Levies are useful for keeping cavalrymen in check - indeed, this is their main use.\n\nBeing low-status individuals - almost with the status of state slaves - and relatively expendable, levy spearmen are the last to receive equipment. Other than a spear, most are lucky to be given a cloth-covered wicker shield. This is good enough to make a man feel safe, but rarely enough to stop a good sword swing!

{levy_spearmen_sassanid_descr_short}
Levy Spearmen are raised from the poorest in society: men taken into the army in lieu of paying their taxes. They are given a spear, some rudimentary training, and told to hope for the best!

Here is adjust from BI Sassanid's Levy Spearmen according to XGM standard.

type             levy spearmen sassanid
dictionary       levy_spearmen_sassanid      ; Levy Spearmen
category         infantry
class            spearmen
voice_type       Light_1
soldier          levy_spearmen_eastern, 50, 0, 1
mount_effect     horse +2, camel +2
attributes       sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap, very_hardy    ; The ones who must run to follow their masters who on horseback into battlefield must be somewhat very hardy.
formation        1, 1, 2, 2, 5, square
stat_health      1, 0
stat_pri         5, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.65  ; Spear
stat_pri_attr    light_spear, spear_bonus_6
stat_sec         0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, no, no, none, 25 ,1
stat_sec_attr    no
stat_pri_armour  3, 8, 5, leather
stat_sec_armour  0, 0, flesh
stat_heat        0
stat_ground      2, 1, 0, -1
stat_mental      6, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay  0
stat_food        60, 300
stat_cost        1, 500, 250, 40, 80, 500
ownership        slave, parthia

What do you think about it?

[LucretiusTC]

Those Levy Spearmen sound quite suitable for their tasks.

Besides the Parthians might recruit occasionally some mercenary infantry e.g. for siege warfare, but they should be relatively small and expensive, not as regular units.

Luc.

[Zarax]

Pathians had a range of medium infantry at least:

[Suppanut]

Pathians had a range of medium infantry at least:

I think Kardakes are too heavy for LV4 Parthian army(but still fit for LV4 Armenia/Saba). They should not have any of elite or too heavy infantry by eastern factions standard since in this submod Kardakes already serve as best line holder for Armenia and Saba which historically field better and heavier infantry than Parthia. Even Normal Eastern Heavy Spearmen still quite a bit too heavy for LV3 Parthia but I'm not sure that they should be able to field them at LV4 or LV5 city or not(which can be done without create new unit).

Although Scythia have infantry mostly fit the standard of tier but this come with cost of more expensive than original which is possible by create clone units.

About archers, they would get one but with spear or not still need to discuss and consider.

Thay will surely get hillmen but only ordinary hillmen, not Hyracian one.

I don't think units draft from hellenic subject are suit or even reliable for them. And any foot soldier with sword would be out of concept for the noble Parthia.(Although in concept for Sassanid but their have field better foot soldiers anyway.)

[Archbaker]

If Kardakes were a Persian/Iranian unit wouldn't they be as geographically close to the Parthians (and possibly Seleucids) as to the Armenians and Sabaeans?

Another thing that hits me is that if Parthia wanted to field heavy infantry it would certainly be possible as they had the weapons and the armours. I just don't imagine they would field very many of them.

Kardakes would look right at home in a Parthian army, wearing scale armour similar to the cataphracts, but as a full-size barracks unit they might result in Parthia focusing too little on cavalry, so I am not sure what could be done.

What sort of function are they meant to fill for Saba and the Armenians? I see that Armenia has legionaries as well, so kardakes would not be their only line unit. In Saba's case there are few really good line units, but it looks like they are meant to rely on speed, anyway.

The idea that occurs to me is to reduce the unit size of the kardakes and make them available to Parthia as well. I imagine a small unit of these guys would still be effective for guarding elephants, archers and any other vulnerable units, and useful as a form of shock infantry.

I know this is probably not what you have planned, but I thought I would suggest it.

[LucretiusTC]

As we know in the beginning of the game the main infantry units of Parthia are Steppe Infantry (regular unit) and Eastern Spearmen (mercenaries). Then after the reforms they could get a little bit better infantry unit like previously mentioned Levy Spearmen (regular unit; 120 men). If we want to keep the number of their infantry highly limited, how about if all or the most of the better quality infantry units would be mercenaries? It should affect the choices of the human player and the AI Faction as well.

Historically the Parthian landed nobility gained power and influence due their military power and increasing rights over the land and its peasants. If the Parthian king wanted to have better quality infantry units for occasional needs, it would be easier to use some money for mercenaries than start to train those peasants who lived under the thumb of the local nobles.

Could there be some post-Marian AOR units for Parthians to fill those duties? For instance "Hyrcanian Hillmen" (recruitable from 3 regions in the southside of the Caspian Sea in EB), "Eastern Heavy Spearmen" (100 men) or "Persian Archer-Spearmen" (Iranian regions) could be available only as high-paid occasional mercenaries, and if they have even better quality units than that their costs should be even higher and their numbers should be smaller.

Besides in the case of Parthia we can see the full historical development of their army because after all the Parthians belonged to the winning Factions of this Era, and they managed to create a relatively long and successful Empire. They surely have all the time and money to create proper infantry units, but it was against their military traditions and the structure of their society. They also needed to maintain strong cavalry because they had to worry about those Central Asian nomads, and they had to have a mobile army that could operate in a large Empire.

Luc.

[Suppanut]

As we know in the beginning of the game the main infantry units of Parthia are Steppe Infantry (regular unit) and Eastern Spearmen (mercenaries). Then after the reforms they could get a little bit better infantry unit like previously mentioned Levy Spearmen (regular unit; 120 men). If we want to keep the number of their infantry highly limited, how about if all or the most of the better quality infantry units would be mercenaries? It should affect the choices of the human player and the AI Faction as well.

Historically the Parthian landed nobility gained power and influence due their military power and increasing rights over the land and its peasants. If the Parthian king wanted to have better quality infantry units for occasional needs, it would be easier to use some money for mercenaries than start to train those peasants who lived under the thumb of the local nobles.

Could there be some post-Marian AOR units for Parthians to fill those duties? For instance "Hyrcanian Hillmen" (recruitable from 3 regions in the southside of the Caspian Sea in EB), "Eastern Heavy Spearmen" (100 men) or "Persian Archer-Spearmen" (Iranian regions) could be available only as high-paid occasional mercenaries, and if they have even better quality units than that their costs should be even higher and their numbers should be smaller.

Besides in the case of Parthia we can see the full historical development of their army because after all the Parthians belonged to the winning Factions of this Era, and they managed to create a relatively long and successful Empire. They surely have all the time and money to create proper infantry units, but it was against their military traditions and the structure of their society. They also needed to maintain strong cavalry because they had to worry about those Central Asian nomads, and they had to have a mobile army that could operate in a large Empire.

Luc.

Thanks for idea as ever. I will looking for the way to implement them. It is not hard to create mercenary version of units. "Eastern Heavy Spearmen" (100 men) or "Persian Archer-Spearmen" should Parthian's Eastern AOR.

[LucretiusTC]

About those unit sizes, we could also try this kind of combination: Levy Spearmen (120 men; regular unit), Heavy Eastern Spearmen (80 men; mercenaries) and Persian Archer-Spearmen (80 men; mercenaries). At the same time e.g. the size of the Parthian Horse-Archers is 70 men. For Armenians the unit size of Heavy Eastern Spearmen would still have full 100 men.

Usually those AOR units have this experience +2 bonus, so we shouldn´t make those units overpowered for a Parthian infantry...:hmmm:

Luc.

[Suppanut]

Here is the conclusion:

As there are all equally for all choice so I will done half way decision.

Main Post-Marian Parthian Rosters will include Eastern Levy Spearmen, and Archers to fight as main Line infantry.

Persian Archers-Spearmen, and Eastern Heavy Spearmen will be include as Eastern AOR for Parthia and Eastern Kingdom after reformed.

So you would get them all with different condition.