Dark Age: Khan's greatness BGTW is recruiting

[gogo t]

We are planing to make a Dark Age Era mod
It will start 700 A.D. and will have 5-6 factions
This is the map of Bulgaria



We are planing to make the Avars, Khazars, Slvas, ERE, The Arabs and Bulgaria.

We need scripter and mapper \and 3d artist but thats not so necessity\

[gogo t]

eny one ?

[TWoxy]

Who else makes up your team?

[gogo t]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=179750

[Master Zuma]

i can help with scripts

[alien_t]

This's great. 10x friend.

[Riothamus]

Hey Guys. Looks very good. I do have MTW2 and will try this mod. I do have the Bulgar's in my bi invasion mod based in the 5th (2end campaign 463AD)century and have been getting a few grateful Bulgar history lessons from NikeBG. I'm curious of the differences between 463AD AND 700ad.

[NikeBG]

I'm curious of the differences between 463AD AND 700ad.

Very very big. Practicaly huge. In 463 we have the Bulgars separated mainly to two groups (Kutrigurs and Utigurs which have different lifestyles and possibly ethnic composition) and living from the North-Caucasus area through the North-Pontic up to Scythia Minor. The Utigurs haven't yet been conquered by the Turkic Khaganate and the Kutrigurs haven't yet joined the Avar one (and both haven't yet had the respective various influences). While in 700 that stage has long passed - the "Old Great Bulgaria" of Khan Kubrat (reunification of all the Bulgar tribes) has been created, lived through and split between his sons, the Danube Bulgaria of Asparukh had been created (possibly mainly by Utigur tribes, while Volga Bulgaria - possibly mainly by Kutrigur ones) together with a very strong Slavic element and by 700 the new ruler should be Tervel (the later kesar/caesar of the Byzantine empire and "Defender of Europe" against the Arab invasion).
Btw, if you need some specific information on the Bulgars about your mod, just ask.

[Riothamus]

Very very big. Practicaly huge. In 463 we have the Bulgars separated mainly to two groups (Kutrigurs and Utigurs which have different lifestyles and possibly ethnic composition) and living from the North-Caucasus area through the North-Pontic up to Scythia Minor. The Utigurs haven't yet been conquered by the Turkic Khaganate and the Kutrigurs haven't yet joined the Avar one (and both haven't yet had the respective various influences). While in 700 that stage has long passed - the "Old Great Bulgaria" of Khan Kubrat (reunification of all the Bulgar tribes) has been created, lived through and split between his sons, the Danube Bulgaria of Asparukh had been created (possibly mainly by Utigur tribes, while Volga Bulgaria - possibly mainly by Kutrigur ones) together with a very strong Slavic element and by 700 the new ruler should be Tervel (the later kesar/caesar of the Byzantine empire and "Defender of Europe" against the Arab invasion).
Btw, if you need some specific information on the Bulgars about your mod, just ask.

Thanks NikeBG
-Can you tell me in 463AD if the Kutrigurs and Utigurs were separated or did they unite after defeating there subjugation to te Huns...or just not at all until the 7th century?
-a proper banner
-did Sarmatians have an impact on their culture
-did the Utigurs settle across the Dnipo river after their successful rebellion against the Huns in around 454?
-also their physical appearances...did they look like the Huns or like the Sarmatians?

Thanks again

[NikeBG]

Thanks NikeBG
-Can you tell me in 463AD if the Kutrigurs and Utigurs were separated or did they unite after defeating there subjugation to te Huns...or just not at all until the 7th century?
-a proper banner
-did Sarmatians have an impact on their culture
-did the Utigurs settle across the Dnipo river after their successful rebellion against the Huns in around 454?
-also their physical appearances...did they look like the Huns or like the Sarmatians?

Thanks again

-a proper banner - perhaps the best banner in game-terms that we could have is the IYI symbol.
-did Sarmatians have an impact on their culture - they certainly did, but the extent is not clear enough. Archaeological researches show similarities between the Sarmatian burial rituals and cranial deformations from one side and one of the two Bulgar groups on another. I personally believe this group can be identified with the Utigurs who would probably be more Sarmatian-influenced (culturally and genetically) than the more nomadic Kutrigurs.
-did the Utigurs settle across the Dnipo river after their successful rebellion against the Huns in around 454? - Well, the Utigurs and the Kutrigurs probably lived rather mixed, with Kutrigurs living predominantly on the Western side of the North-Pontic (i.e. Scythia Minor) and the Utigurs living mostly on its Eastern side and the North-Caucasus. And although there were Kutrigurs also in the North-Caucasus region, as well as Utigurs in Scythia Minor, I'd say the Dniepr river can be said to be the dividing line between the two groups at that time - to its west would be mostly the Kutrigurs and to its east would live mostly the Utigurs, though still mixed, as Zacharius Rhetor also implies by mentioning the Bulgars as living in cities and in tents: "The land Bazgun ... extends up to the Caspian Gates and to the sea, which are in the Hunnish lands. Beyond the gates live the Burgars (Bulgars), who have their language, and are people pagan and barbarian. They have towns. And the Alans - they have five towns. ... Avnagur (Aunagur) are people, who live in tents. Avgar, sabir, burgar, alan, kurtargar, avar, hasar, dirmar, sirurgur, bagrasir, kulas, abdel and hephtalit are thirteen peoples, who live in tents, earn their living on the meat of livestock and fish, of wild animals and by their weapons (plunder)."
-also their physical appearances...did they look like the Huns or like the Sarmatians? - As far as I know, we're not entirely sure about how the Huns themselves looked like (most people see them as Mongoloid or "Turkic", though I think Attila was described to have had red hair and bright eyes), but given the separation of the Bulgars to those two main groups, I'd say the Kutrigurs would appear a bit closer to the Huns (whatever they might have looked like), while the Utigurs would have looked more similar to the Sarmatians (including the cranial deformations).
-Can you tell me in 463AD if the Kutrigurs and Utigurs were separated or did they unite after defeating there subjugation to te Huns...or just not at all until the 7th century? - First, I have to say again that this period of the Bulgar history is not very well researched today, so much of what I say would be theory at best (as even archaelogic data isn't absolutely conclusive). Now, it is believed that after Attila's death, his 3rd son, Ernakh (mentioned in the "Nominalia of the Bulgarian rulers" as Irnik), movied with his "Huno-Bulgars" to Scythia Minor (i.e. Kutrigur area) but ruled over both Kutrigurs and Utigurs. However, I can't be certain whether that includes also the Utigur's North-Caucasian lands (which would mean there was an arc of somewhat united people on the northern half of the Black Sea, as well as its eastern and north-western sides) or it simply means that he ruled also over the fewer Utigurs only in Scythia Minor. However, in the early 80s of the 5th century the Bulgars appear in the historical sources with this united name (Bulgars) - in 480 they are allies of emperor Zeno against the Ostrogoths. In the next decades they also have numerous incursions into the Balkans again with the name of "Bulgars" until 551 when emperor Justinian's diplomacy managed to incite internal conflicts and the Utigurs and Kutrigurs were again disunited. Soon after that the Kutrigurs joined the newly arrived Avars (and some of them settled in Panonia in their Avar khaganate), while most Utigurs were soon conquered by the Gokturkic khaganate. The two groups were reunited again around 630 when khan Kubrat created the so-called "Old Great Bulgaria". So, to answer your question, I think it would safe to say that some of them were united in 463 (and later on until 551), though it's possible that some of the Utigurs might have remained independent in the North Caucasus area.

Edit: Here is an interesting article somewhat related to this.

[Nakharar]

I can be mapper