Off Topic in the D&D (the old troll)

[pannonian]

I'm sorry but the very idea that people should be punished for referring to another member on a forum perplexes me. It's not going into the ToS.

Read the history of that item of the ToS again for an explanation of why it's there, and why something of that sort has to remain. Referencing another poster is NOT allowed as a rule. Whether the rule will be strictly applied will depend on the moderator's reading of the individual case, but the rule has to be there, and it has to apply by default.

If you wish the rule to be removed, refer to the history of the rule, and explain why it's not longer needed. If you can't explain how the situation now means the rule is no longer necessary, it's staying.

[removeduser_487563287433]

It SHOULD be allowed as a rule. It's retarded. This is a discussion forum, for the love of God. Everybody is here to discuss things with other people. Discussing with one's self is not healthy.

And the very idea it's called off-topic is infuriating! How is it off-topic to talk about the experience of one user who has served in the armed forces in a thread about Iraq? Are the year's I spent living in a muslim community off-topic in a thread about how muslims assimilate in the United Kingdom? Is my job as a Parliamentary Researcher, or my membership of the Conservative Party off-topic in a political thread? Is my stories about my grandfather off-topic in a thread about El Alamein?

Nope. Stupid rule. Got to go.

[pannonian]

Read post #41 and answer the points. If you can't adequately answer them, then the rule stays, however you may feel about this very effective restriction on trolling.

If you wish the rule to be removed, refer to the history of the rule, and explain why it's not longer needed. If you can't explain how the situation now means the rule is no longer necessary, it's staying.

[removeduser_487563287433]

If the proof that referring to another user is not necessarily off-topic isn't enough, specifically what do you want me to respond to?

[pannonian]

If you wish the rule to be removed, refer to the history of the rule, and explain why it's not longer needed. If you can't explain how the situation now means the rule is no longer necessary, it's staying.

The history of the OT in D&D rule has been described in detail in this thread - what the situation was that it was brought in to address, how it addressed it, and how effective it has been. So explain how the rule is no longer relevant by explaining how the situation has changed.

Simple enough. Explain how the situation which it was brought in to address is no more. Any other argument is irrelevant.

[removeduser_487563287433]

I would suggest ever implementing this rule was wrong, failed in its entirety to achieve its goals and will never succeed in future to do so.

In fact it's so shockingly contradictory it makes the ToS and those writing it a laughing stock. Off-topic to post about other users? Please. Nobody is going to respect such an obviously faulty rule.

[imb39]

Referring to another person in a way which will probably derail a thread (ie insulting someone) should be class as 'disruption of the boards' imo.

To give people carte blanche to do this is simply not tenable. It will simply increase the number of threads that will need to be cleaned if not directly closed. The net result of this is -

• People feeling aggrieved that they were attacked personally
• People feeling aggrieved because threads are getting closed.

I cannot see one positive reason to allow this. If you class this sort of behaviour as 'nuisance' you are making the whole thing very opaque and people will, rightly, be confused. It is far too vague a term to be used.

[removeduser_487563287433]

And people wont be confused when they are punished for referring to another member's experiences in a thread for being "off-topic?"

If you want to punish people for insulting others then do so. Why bring this "off-topic" nonsense into the equation?

[imb39]

Hence why I think it is disruptive.

[GrnEyedDvl]

I happen to agree with Ian here.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Insulting somebody is disruptive, and already covered by the ToS. Referring to somebody is 99% of the time not.

The off-topic in the D&D forums rule is at best unecessary and at worst counter-productive and stupid.

[imb39]

No, it is useful as it stops threads from wandering off into personal dialogues which have little meaning to other members or relate only ever so slightly at best to the OP.

Off topic in the D&D is applied more generously than in other areas, but there needs to be SOME boundaries.

[GrnEyedDvl]

Ferrets, or anyone else:
Can you show me a single note for OT posting that the person wasnt infracted for referencing the poster? I cant seem to remember one though there could well be a few. I will go look through the Tribunal archives later.

Show me where you think this has been/is being abused. All of the off topic notes I see regarding mentioning other members are posts that are somewhat degrading to the person mentioned. Borderline insults.

If you wanted to replace that with a 1 point Insulting, I would be ok with that, but the results would still be the same.

[removeduser_487563287433]

Nonsense. In the recent debate thread concerning the Srebrenica massacre one user's personal experience in the armed forces developed the thread in an extremely detailed and helpful way. That's precisely the sort of constructive debate that you will strangle by punishing people for referring to one another.

If you wanted to replace that with a 1 point Insulting, I would be ok with that, but the results would still be the same.

At the very least this should be happening.

[imb39]

In some situations it can be useful, that is clear - but how often does it prove to be inane at best, downright rude at worse? This is where discretion is needed.

[GrnEyedDvl]

Nonsense. In the recent debate thread concerning the Srebrenica massacre one user's personal experience in the armed forces developed the thread in an extremely detailed and helpful way. That's precisely the sort of constructive debate that you will strangle by punishing people for referring to one another.

Again, can you show me where someone got a note for mentioning someone's experience without resulting to bashing them? I honestly dont think there is one out there.

[removeduser_487563287433]

In some situations it can be useful, that is clear - but how often does it prove to be inane at best, downright rude at worse? This is where discretion is needed.

I disagree that people being rude is a problem. We'll never succeed in forcing people to be nice to one another, and I have little taste for trying. The ToS should just make a statement that you cannot make insults. But not talking about one another? On a discussion forum? Just what's the point?

Is a member's Turkishness/Greekness not relevent when they are discussing the future of Cyprus? A member's evangelical Christianity when he discusses the Kansas School Board's decisions? Of course they are, and people will bring it up. Quite rightly, too. And do you know what? 99% of the time they will do it acceptably, and for the 1% we have the personal insults rule.

Again, can you show me where someone got a note for mentioning someone's experience without resulting to bashing them? I honestly dont think there is one out there.

All the more reason to remove it from the ToS, then.

[pannonian]

Insulting somebody is disruptive, and already covered by the ToS. Referring to somebody is 99% of the time not.

The off-topic in the D&D forums rule is at best unecessary and at worst counter-productive and stupid.

The reasoning behind the rule has already been explained here in this very thread. Go back and read it. Explain how the situation has changed that the rule is no longer necessary, instead of trying to win the argument with rhetoric and adjectives.

At the moment, the rule is necessary because it stops debates from degenerating into personal slugfests. Whether the rule is categorised under disruptive posting or OT matters not - the rule must exist in some form. Referencing the poster is certainly disruptive, so it may be categorised so, but its application also depends on whether or not the reference is on-topic, so it may be categorised under OT also. Where the rule is put matters little, but it must live until a decent argument is put forward as to how the situation that brought about its existence is no more.

[GrnEyedDvl]

What I am saying when I asked for that, is for you to show me abuse of the current language. I dont think its being abused, I dont think you can show me where someone got a note for mentioning someone else, when they werent doing it in a demeaning way. You call it rude, others call it insulting.

Under the current rules you are perfectly free to mention other peoples experiences, there havent been notes handed out for that. Hell in my rare ventures into the Pit both my business life and my firearms experience have been extensively discussed without any notes being handed out. Its when someone uses that conversation as a platform to bash someone that the notes start coming.

If this gets changed, you will just see the rule about Insulting being enforced to a greater degree. Currently the moderators have a choice of Off-Topic or Insulting. You will remove that choice from them and you will see a lot more Insulting notes handed out.

[removeduser_487563287433]

The reasoning faulty, the response excessive.

What I am saying when I asked for that, is for you to show me abuse of the current language. I dont think its being abused, I dont think you can show me where someone got a note for mentioning someone else, when they werent doing it in a demeaning way. You call it rude, others call it insulting.

Under the current rules you are perfectly free to mention other peoples experiences, there havent been notes handed out for that. Hell in my rare ventures into the Pit both my business life and my firearms experience have been extensively discussed without any notes being handed out. Its when someone uses that conversation as a platform to bash someone that the notes start coming.

We're not here to make everybody happy. And people are more than willing to play the "I am insulted" card in the debate forums to get at somebody they dislike.

It also extremely unfair to ask me for examples of the off-topic thing being abused as I hardly have access to a list of all infractions (as you well know) but as luck would have it we have young Pontifex today moderating against people referring to one another, even though no harm or disruption was coming from it...

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...=176642&page=3

This also is why you cannot have off-topic rules in the ToS aimed at dealing with something unrelated such as personal insults. Sure, you are right and experienced moderators can use their judgement. But inexperienced ones? Pontifex has shown how misappropriated this off-topic rule is.