Neo Jin dynasty suggestion

[RollingWave]

Well, it would be better if there was a map for China / Korea area, but let's do the historical reasearch first.

Historical background

Machuria is what is today North eastern China and parts of the Russian east coast. it is in proximity to Korea / China / Mongolia / Siberia. a region largely untamed relative to their Chinese and Korean neighbors, but also a lot more suited for argiculture than the Mongolian plains (it is in fact, one of the largest argiculture zone in modern day China)



While Machuria has entered in and out thoughout Chinese history . it didn't become a major regional player until the 10th century after the collapse of the Mighty Tang Dynasty of China. it was right at after the Tang collapsed that the Khitan people formed the Liao dynasty based out of Machuria.

The Liao took advantage of China's weakened state, exchanging military aid for financial returns and eventually land (including the North Eastern section of the great wall, the major Chinese cities in the from Beijing all the way to the Yellow river had virtually no defense against them) which gave them a major strategic advantage against the later Chinese Song dynasties. which ended up paying major tributes to them throughout most of their existences.

By the early 12 century though, the tide begin to turn against the Liao, as the Jurchen people from deeper parts of Machuria begin to rise up agaisnt them, seeing their opportunity to rid themself of an major financial and stratigical problem, the Song allied themself with the Jurchens and together they launched a 2 way offensive against the Liao. the Song army was defeated at the great wall, but the Jurchens managed to annihilate the Liao forces and take their capital, the Liao dynasty disentergrated , with a good portion of their people fleeing west and founding the Kara-Khitan Khanate that would go on being a major player until some Genghgis Khan dude showed up.

The Jurchens declared themself the Jin dynasty after their conquest of Liao, and realizing that the Song army had also been devastated recently and they hold great strategic positioning against them, they soon launched an offensive against the Song, rushing strait foward to seige the Song Capital of Kei Feng (one of the largest cities in the world at the time) Kei Feng was poorly positioned for defense, as it was basically right on the open Yellow River plains. however the Song also had a large arse army and the walls of KeiFeng were some of the best of it's days. and the Song managed to hold out against the Jin invansion in it's first going.

Then internal dumbness killed the Song dynasty as jelous rivals ousted the Officer that organzed the defense and they sued for peace with the Jin . only to realize that the demands were completely unrealistic, the Jin seeing the internal disorganization of the Song, launched another offensive and this time the Emperor put a complete amature in charge of defense, the results were predictable. as the Song army and the majority of it's officers and the Emperor and his father were captured . the new power in China has formed. teh Jin dynasty.

The Song however, survied in the South thanks to valient defense of various talented (albeit often mavrick) generals and the utilizing of the many Riverways in the south to their advantage. (where the Jin cavalry were made much less effective).

The stalemate held for a couple more century until the Mongols came in and killed everyone in the area. after the collapse of the Jin, the remaining Jurchens fled back to Machuria, where they would be subjects of the Mongol Yuan dynasty, and after that the Ming dynasty.

By the later parts of the Ming dynasty though, the Ming's own coruption and their endless struggles against teh Mongols open up new opportunities for the various tribes of the North East. and in this time Nurhachi was born.


Nurhachi was born in 1558, the grandson of a local Jurchen Tribe leader. he worked under the Ming administrator send to oversee the area. (to keep them from going independent was his real objective). however in the handling of various tribal disputes Nurhachi's grandfather and father were both killed in one incident in 1582. leaving the then 24 year old Nurhachi as the leader of the tribe.

He set off on his ambition almost immediately, first forging an small alliance between several closer tribes and attacking the tribes that killed his father / grandfather. he spent most of the next 4 decades abosorbing other Jurchen clans into his ever growing alliance, until he was the Khan of Machuria. during this time though, he was still wokring as a vassal for the Ming, and even offered aid against the Japanese invasion during the Imjin war. however he was declined, and ended up only fighting a few minor skrimish against the Japanese near the river of Yialue.

By 1618, he offically rebelled against the Ming dynasty and started what was the begining of the end for the Ming.

However, his war against the Ming was hardly a easy process, as in 1626 the last great Ming general, Yuan Chun Huan defeated him in battle, Nurhachi himself was wounded and died two years later .

His son Hong Tai Ji though, would continue his legacy, going on to forming an alliance with the Mongols and eventually all of China, forging the last imperial dynasty of China, the Qing.

[RollingWave]

Military

The Jurchens (offically renamed the Manchu's by Nurhachi's son due to the fact that they were by then not really just Jurchens, but a combination of Jurchen / Khitan / Han Chinese / Korean / Mongolian) were semi - nomadic people, some of them have been settled for centuries, while other still roam and hunt . they were almost as good as the Mongols in horse ridings, but also had better technological support. as they're conquest continued they also had more and more infantry support based on defected Ming troops. and later the support of Mongolians as well.

Basic troops:

Machurian Horse archer: the Machurians were certainly still in the game of the old style nomad horse archery. as their basic fighting style is largely the same as the Mongols.

Manchurian infantry: drawn from the rural peasents or servants. these man are poor infantries . typically wielding spears or other polearms, while they are fierce in nature, the lack of training and motivation and equipment means they can't stand up against any professional or noble troops.

Machurian archers: much like the infantry, these are poor hunters, they're not quiet as bad as their melee counterpart , as they are skilled bowman used to hunting in the harsh mountains of Machuria. but being unable to afford much armor or serious military training, they're typically in deep trouble once they get into melee.

Militaman: drawn from the cities amoung settled Machurians (could be of any ethinicty) they were the bulk of their early infantries (when they needed infantries anyway) they're typically somewhat better armed and useful enough for seige defense. but hardly great soliders themself.

Milita crossbowmans: much like the west, the crossbows were a favored weapon for lesser trained troops. the Machu's had ample access to Chinese technology, so making crossbows was certainly no problem for them. arming the wealthier but untrained city dwellers with these is the most obivious solution.

advanced troops:

Banner calvary : as Nurhachi's conquest grew, he started organizing the various tribes into Banners (this is partially a scheme to depower the tribal leaders too), however, the 8 Banners would remain the yoke of the Machurian military might for most of their early conquest. before they deterioted later in the dynasty. the 8 banners didn't include just Machurian tribes, but later on Mongolians and Han Chinese too. (the Han part got problematic for the obvious reason that they outnumber the Machus+Mongols by several times )

8 Banner cavalry (from the Machurian and Mongol side anyway) mostly fought as Horse archers as well, however, they were surperbly armored and organized.

This is a Jesusite drawing of emperor Qian Long. who is dressed in the old 8 banner fashion


Oh, and that piece of armor in the drawing is still around today.



in real battle, these brigidane armors were usually wraped up by hardened cloths for further protection (espically against arrows and bullets)

Mongolian Auxilery: while the Machurians were eventually able to abosorb nearly all of Mongolia into the 8 banners, the process didn't happen overnight and wasn't completely for another century more after this time. during their earlier stages many Mongols still fought as mercenaries or allies to the Machus. these light horse archers who deem themself skilled enough for hire are typically better skill than their Machurian counterparts.

Banner lancers: the Jurchens have a tradition of heavy horsemans, in fact they're primary field force during the Jin dynasty was a combination of super heavy cavalry (the Iron Budda's) combined with lighter supporting cavalry (the disarmers) . by this period though, development in gunpowder has made that sort of tactic rather wasteful, however the Machus would still use lance tactics in the right situation. armed with a long light lance and turkish sabers. these fast troops had no horse armor but the men were still well armored.

bombards: having captured / acquired many Chinese engineers during his camapgin, the Machus were able to build some cannons, though not matching in the quality of the Ming. (until much later)

Ming auxillery infantries: in his earlier campaigns, Nurhachi often had the support of the local Ming administrations, while later on after his rebellion, captured Ming troops were quickly put to work for their new boss, the Ming was hardly popular by that time, and most of the men caught were pretty fed up being stationed so far away from home anyway, so most men had little problem "fighting their way back home". since they were hardly numerous in the begining, they typically served as crack troop heavy infantries, either wielding swords and shield or Miao Dao

Ming auxillery crossbowman : these pavise heavy crossbowmans are from either ally or surrendered Ming troops. useful for shootout, the Ming auxilleries were generally the most reliable infantry the Manchurian could field and would remain ALL the way up to the opium war.

Banner infantry: skilled bowman from the banner army occasionally fought on foot. heavily armored in brigidane and armed with large composite bows and saber.

Elite troops

Noble Bannermans: these are Machurian / Mongolian nobles in war from powerful tribal leaders to banner commanders to Nurhachi or Hung Tai Chi himself. wearing the best armor possible and supported by some of the finest solider they have to offer, these troops inspire their army and strike fear into the oppenents. while they were probably some of the best horse archers of the world, they were certainly well armed and armored enough to fight hand to hand without any problem. these men occasionally wore horse armors on top of their men being dressed in super heavy brigidane, as they're warhorse were also some of the best (and expensive) and could still move swiftly even when carrying more armor.

Zhong Jun artilleries: the great Ming general Yuan Chun Huan had a lasting impact on the Machurains, not only did he defeat and kill their founder Nurhachi, he also scored several more victories against his successor Huan Tai Ji, the obvious firepower difference from the Ming's new cannons were obvious, and this forced the Machurians to re-organize their Han troops, one of the first job was the forming of Zhong Jun, aka "heavy duty army" (the predesaccor to the Han 8 banners) by this time sufficent Chinese engineers were under their command to create cannons almost equal to the Ming using the latest western designs.

Zhung Jun muskteers: with the forming of Zhung Jun comes the offical regiments for Han musketeers, while they were used before this period they were rarely numerous enough or well organized enough to be a real force. from this time onward though they were, and as more Ming troops defect to their cause this componet became almost as important as the banner mans (and in the hundreds of years after the conquest of China, these men would eventually become the primary force)

[Nelduin]

Great ! Maybe we will add this faction.

[RollingWave]

Some more historical information. on Machuria and the Qing military progression.

The Han Chinese had long settled the lower parts of Machuria, with the coastlines of the Yellow sea long being considered part of most Chinese dynasties even since the days of Qin Shi Huang . (of the Warring States, the kingdom of Yan was founded from Beijing to the northern tip of modern day Korea.) the Liao Dong Penusula has espically been a stronghold.

Chinese cities / colonies exist deeper into Machuria, particulary the city of ShengYang and Liao Yang, which were rumored to have been founded by the Kingdom of Yan well before the birth of Christ, but it remained an important city in the region as a strategic and commercial hub. the Jin dynasty had it as their Northern Capital.

After the Qing secured China though, they ordered a policy to not allow new Chinese immigrants into Machuria, this policy was mostly used as a contingency plan in case they were driven out they had their own playground and not one overran by Han chinese. and also to hopefully maintain the nomadic warrior spirits of those back home. but it didn't really work, as the 8 banner declined dramatically after the conquest of China, to the point where by the time of Qian Long ( 6th Emperor if we start from Nurhachi) the bannermans were nearly useless (save for the Mongolian 8 baners). and they gave up the policy later into the dynasty anyway. as overpopulation forced them to open up the virgin lands of the north east

The Han part of the army continue to be an issue for the Qing, at the begining they called the "old han army", later on they were formally organized as "Zhung Jun" (heavy duty army) before they formed the Han 8 banners.

However after Wu Shang Guai's surrender and them entering Beijing, they soon realize that the Han 8 banners ended up being almost 3 times as large as the Monglians + Machurians. and feared for potential problems if they remained on the same status. and thus the Green Camp army was formed. the green camps were runned more like the old Wei Shuo system of the Ming. and weren't given nearly as much prevelige as the 8 banners.

The green camp was the main infantry stay of the Machu's in it's early to mid empire stages. espically important after the Kang Xi era (3rd emperor who really secured the Qing reign for good by defeating Wu Shang Guai's rebellion and mooping up the remaining Mongolian resistences along with conquering Taiwan).

However while the Green camp remained relatively effective organizational wise, (unlike the Machurian 8 banner, who could no longer field even remotely competent soldiers) they were completely out teched by the Opium war. as they had made virtually no progress from Early Qing / Late Ming. where as the 200 years from 1650s to 1850s were obviously huge era of change.

After the Opium war massive rebellions rose agaisnt the Qing, the most famous being the Taiping (the Kingdom of Heavenly peace, the founder claim he was the brother of Jesus) rebellion that controlled a huge part of the rich Chinese south.

This forced the Qing into more reforms. as the massive scale of the rebellions meant the green camp can't keep up , and several high ranking officals asked the emperor to return to their homelands that were being overran by these rebels to form militas to counter this insurgency. these militas would have a profound impact on the development of Chinese history for the next 100 year.

The first man to run these milita was Zheng Guo Fang. returning to the central Yangtsi region of his homeland he was quickly able to raise an milita army from his clansman and local gentries and their supporters. these people obviously had more to lose from the new rebellions than the starved peasants. and being closely tied meant they usually had better moral . they were also armed in more western fashions. and Zheng even hired western advicers to help their cause (indeed westerns in Shanghai later even formed their own army as the Taiping rebels fell out of favor with them)

These militas proved effective, well trained and organized. they were often named by where they're from (Zheng's army was Xian Jun, or the army of Xian, which stands for the central Yangtsi region) while another , more influential army was the army of Huai (Huai river region) by Zheng's diciple Lee Hong Zhang. Lee would go on to become the single most important politition of the late Qing.

These militas eventually crushed the Taiping rebellion. but with it also spelled the begining of the end of the Qing dynasty, as these army were very personalized. they're bound to their leader through clanship or common origins. and their loyalty to the dynasty were dubious at best. the sources of the New army that the Qing begin to form (completely westernized army) was also drawn from thse man.

The Westernized army and navy were crushed in 1895 in the first Sino-Japan war. the army was defeated in Korea (but not annihilated) while the Navy was completely annihilated.

As Lee grew old, power on the army passed onto one man, Yuan Shi Kei. Yuan's role in Chinese history proved pivitol and disastorous in two different occasion. as Guang Tsu Emperor wanted to remove his Aunt, Cixi dowager emperoress from power and move foward to complete drastic reforms. Yuan's aid was obviously neccesary, but he defected at the last moment, effectively sealing the fate of the Qing dynasty.

A few years later in 1910, he sealed the fate of the dynasty even more completely and permenantly when he struck a deal with the revolutionaries in the south, forcing the last Qing Emperor to abidicate, the deal was that he would do this and the revolutionaries under Dr. Sun Yat San ( who grew up in Howaii of all places) would nominate him to be the first President, the revolutionaries kept their end of the deal, but Yuan had no plans to run a Democratic republic, instead he was planning to makehimself emperor.

the plan failed and he died in disgrace a shortwhile later, but the damage has been done, as the armies he controlled split into the hands of different generals, and an era of warlords would ensue. and would not completely end until Mao Zi Dong beat Chang Kai Shek to Taiwan in 1949.

[high_templar]

@RollingWave,

We, my team and I, thank you for all infos you give. As we announced, we don't work actually on the project because the develloppment of Battles of Kingdoms but we'll start working on BoAv3 till march-april 2009. But our modeler work hard on all models. We gave him the list of all models he must make and we took in consideration all pictures we received from you and other peoples.

Thank you again.

Sincerely

[mochi]

Neo Jin had invaded Korean peninsula and captured Soul castle two times,
at first in 1627 and later in 1636.

[RollingWave]

In case we comeup with a map.. notiable cities in the Manchurian area (at that time.. not including those founded in the later half the the Qing or modern)


Modern day provinces of the Manchurian region, from top to bottom is the province of HeiLongJian, JiLin, LiaoNing.



Ming map, major cities shown in the Machurian regions .

Nurhachi started off as a vassal to the Ming, who's provincial base was the city of Chien-Zhou (modern day JiLin city?) he's tribe was located just north of the Yalu river, in another word he was located in the Jilin Region and close to Korea, at the time, the Ming classified the Jurchens into 3 group. Jianzhou Jurchens (the onces living in central Manchuria, like Nurhachi's clan, usually along the Yalu river or Shungari river) the Haixi Jurchens (aka the Jurchens to the west of the sea, so they were north of korea along the sea) and the Wild Jurchens (even further north, along the heilongjian and some into Siberia).

At the time, there was no real central power here. the Ming government has a presence here. as the southern coasts and up to parts of Jilin have a good amount of Han Chinese colonies. the Jurchens were nominally vassals of the Ming, though their alliance often drift between the Ming and the Mongols. (or themselfs).

more later

[lalalax3]

the manchurians did offer the koreans to kill japs when japs invaded, but since the manchurains is known for their trickery and dishonesty and honorless, the koreans went begging and crying(literally) at the ming for help, in which the ming own the japs twice