Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 20 of 26

Thread: useless gun powder units

  1. #1

    Default useless gun powder units

    is it just me or do gun powder units seem very useless in this game? I don't think its the mod, i think its the game itself.

    what i mean is

    1) in a shootout between archers and musketeers, archers always win.

    2) when shooting at heavy infantries walking toward these ranged units, archers or even crossbow men always kill a lot more than the musketeers before the heavy infantries reach them.

    granted that i used english longbow for the test, i still dont think archers should be better than musketeers in an open field battle. for the gun powder units, i used musketeers and janissaries. Both fail miserably compared to archers. There's a reason why gun powder units replaced archers in militaries all over the world. even if you argue that the english longbows are supposed to be the best, how can anyone explain why some crossbow men can do better than musketeers when facing incoming infantries?

    does anyone agree with me that gun powder units should get a big big boost in terms of range and attack power? I think giving this new weapon a reason to replace the old ones makes more sense. At least make them as useful as the archers.
    Last edited by wngpooniii; July 06, 2008 at 06:19 PM.

  2. #2
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Airstrip One
    Posts
    4,415

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Archers generally were more effective than early cumbersome firearms. Even up to the English civil war. If Charles I, had had longbowmen at the battle of Marston Moor instead of musketeers, he would probably have won.

    Good archers require years of training, but any fool can be taught how to point a gun.

  3. #3

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Quote Originally Posted by Incontinenta Buttox View Post
    Archers generally were more effective than early cumbersome firearms. Even up to the English civil war. If Charles I, had had longbowmen at the battle of Marston Moor instead of musketeers, he would probably have won.

    Good archers require years of training, but any fool can be taught how to point a gun.
    This is most certainly true, but I agree with him here that gunpowder units in the game aren't quite up to snuff. They were a revolutionary weapon that changed warfare completely within a few hundred years (compare the Hundred Years war to the American Revolution or even WWII). They were powerful enough to make most armor completely useless, but were extremely inaccurrate. I propose decreasing accuracy, increasing power significantly, and decreasing range to balance the unit.

  4. #4
    Incontinenta Buttox's Avatar Protector Domesticus
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    Airstrip One
    Posts
    4,415

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    I agree for the sake of playability. Otherwise what why bother getting late gunpowder units.

    Make gunpowder units devestating a short range!

  5. #5

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    It would also be a great feeling to watch as your front line of musketeers waits Bunker Hill style until your enemy is about to charge, then... BOOM! lol

  6. #6

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    I would late muskets dominate. I mean I understand that early gun powder units are supposed to suck, but late musketeers and janissaries are supposed to be what replaced melee and archer units. and reducing range seems to me like a bad idea because one of their most attractive attribute is that they are longer in range than archers.

  7. #7
    Koljan's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Israel
    Posts
    1,396

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    I dont know how accurate this stat is, but from what i've Heard, In those days one of each 100 bullets would hit.

    Also remember that Gunpowder units are supposed to have an advantage over archers in bad weather.. or am I wrong?

  8. #8
    anaztazioch's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kraków, Poland
    Posts
    859

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Quote Originally Posted by wngpooniii View Post
    is it just me or do gun powder units seem very useless in this game? I don't think its the mod, i think its the game itself.

    what i mean is

    1) in a shootout between archers and musketeers, archers always win.

    2) when shooting at heavy infantries walking toward these ranged units, archers or even crossbow men always kill a lot more than the musketeers before the heavy infantries reach them.

    granted that i used english longbow for the test, i still dont think archers should be better than musketeers in an open field battle. for the gun powder units, i used musketeers and janissaries. Both fail miserably compared to archers. There's a reason why gun powder units replaced archers in militaries all over the world. even if you argue that the english longbows are supposed to be the best, how can anyone explain why some crossbow men can do better than musketeers when facing incoming infantries?

    does anyone agree with me that gun powder units should get a big big boost in terms of range and attack power? I think giving this new weapon a reason to replace the old ones makes more sense. At least make them as useful as the archers.
    MTW2 archery is glitched. Unlike RTW javnelins cant put more than 1 throw against infantry charging, sometimes they have problems giving even one throw wven with skirmish turned off.
    archers also take too long to shoot arrows, same for crossbows.

    As for gunpowder wepaons, well their reforming takes too long, also after reform before they shoot they wait for X-mas. Their accuracy and strength also is off. Also if you put them on walls they are completelly useless, as only a few of them makes the shot.

    Anyway, against charging cavalry, musketmans could make 3 volleys and retreat behind pikeman formations. In MTW2 making 2 volleys is dumb effort.

    If you tlak about effectivness, well early gunpowder weapons effectivness was VERY poor on open field.
    They were good in siege combat, when they easilly could shoot at wall defenders, or from walls to besieging forces.

    I could go on forever, but in fact, they are useless thanks to MTW2 engine. I make their accuracy super accurate, make them reform, dubble the damage and increase range. Even with those things, they cannot beat infantry (kills about 35% of infantry), cannot beat cavalry (40%), and archers (50%, loses thanks to weak vs archers and no armor)

  9. #9
    anaztazioch's Avatar Centenarius
    Join Date
    Nov 2007
    Location
    Kraków, Poland
    Posts
    859

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Quote Originally Posted by Koljan View Post
    I dont know how accurate this stat is, but from what i've Heard, In those days one of each 100 bullets would hit.

    Also remember that Gunpowder units are supposed to have an advantage over archers in bad weather.. or am I wrong?
    Bad weather and early gunpowder = wet powder = no shot
    But in wind, arrows are inaccurate compared to guns.

  10. #10

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    I believe the Duke of Wellington wanted Longbowmen to fight Napoleon, but was informed that such men no longer existed.

    I watched a documentary on this a while back, and it showed how the skeletons of longbowmen became bulky on their right side, and bone spurs occured on the two foremost fingers on the left hand, as a result of constant training.

    These men, however, were capable of firing a volley every 5 seconds. I would have just paid the money to keep them trained, than wasted my money on firearms (until firearms became any good), especially as everyone was in such a hurry to abandon armour.

  11. #11

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Quote Originally Posted by anaztazioch View Post
    Even with those things, they cannot beat infantry (kills about 35% of infantry), cannot beat cavalry (40%), and archers (50%, loses thanks to weak vs archers and no armor)
    about weak vs no armor...what the heck is that supposed to mean?? the game designers wanted to make it so that shooting at someone wearing an iron armor does MORE damage than shooting at someone wearing nothing or just cloths? how does that make any sense? is there a way to make it effective against armor and no armor? I have actually noticed this weird case in which my musketeers would shoot at unclothed aztecs and they would survive better than armored swordsmen would. thats insane!

  12. #12

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Quote Originally Posted by Sargon_of_Akkad View Post
    I believe the Duke of Wellington wanted Longbowmen to fight Napoleon, but was informed that such men no longer existed.
    i think i can agree that longbowmen were special and that they probably were better than musketeers. however, in this game nearly all archers are better than guns. even crossbowmen are better than guns. whats the point of making a gun if crossbowmen can do better?? I think the order of dominance and effectiveness should go:

    1) English longbowmen and elite muskets like Turkish janissary and Russian Cossack Musketeers
    2) regular musketeers
    3) crossbowmen
    4) regular archers from other factions

    in terms of armor piercing abilities, I think muskets should do much better than any archers can do. The japanese did so well against the Koreans in the war in the 15th century because koreans used arhcers and were outranged and outpowered by the japanese muskets. Again, im not talking about english longbows, they are special.

  13. #13

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    If anything, guns were worse. They were just cheaper, and much much easier. The prices should reflect this.

  14. #14

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    I once (although the timing was luck) seen a line of my men being charges by dismounted knights, the men were loading their guns as the knights were charging, and just as the knights were about to make contact the entire line exploded in smoke and fire. An amazing amount of the knights just fell over at my mens feet and the rest just legged it. I just sat there amazed at what i had just seen.

  15. #15
    Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jun 2008
    Location
    Greater New York City
    Posts
    2,122

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    firearms should have bonus against buildings to make it better and it is realist

  16. #16

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Do you mean all firearms including muskets and stuff, or just cannons?

  17. #17
    vietanh797's Avatar Domesticus
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Location
    HN,VN
    Posts
    2,442

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    after all battle I had I think that mounted unit with gun is much more effective than normal gun unit
    use a full stack of mounted unit against any other full stack you can see that they powerful(but they have no chance if you use a full stack last ver longbow unit )
    and control mounted gun unit is harder than mounted archer because they always shot in other head >"<
    Empire II and Medieval III pls

  18. #18

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    Right then, what I have done with gun powder units is remove fire_by_rank from their attributes .Which should fix the problem of reforming units. I've also reduced the cost of training gun powder units by a small amount. And made some crossbows a little bit more expensive.

    Dave

  19. #19
    THARN's Avatar Senator
    Join Date
    Mar 2008
    Location
    U.S.A. Ohio
    Posts
    1,201

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    interesting discussion, I think though that most of you guy's are thinking in terms too modern. remember.. These were the first fire arms... they were not accurate, and they mostly just made alot of noise and smoke- this might be a good idea if you can put it in for lowering an enemies morale.
    You have to remember- the shot that came out was a crude ball- or a bunch of pebble sized crud. this will not fly straight.
    until you get to Napoleonic era... don't even think these were devastating. because they weren't. they were slow to load and slow to fire - and most fighters just used one pre-loaded before a battle then switched to hand to hand.
    Sorry to interrupt the discussion. But I implore you to not make these units too powerful in terms of range and accuracy.

  20. #20

    Default Re: useless gun powder units

    @THARN,

    Don't worry, I have only changed gun powder units by a little bit as explained above. If people don't think I have gone far enough, they are free to carry out their own modifications to these units.

    Dave

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •