Extended Cultures Discussion

[CaesarVincens]

May I ask if it is playable with the Alex.exe?

Not currently, but there are some plans to make it so.

[CaesarVincens]

I just realized that every version of Extended Cultures has been using non-reduced AI bonus. I am very sorry for those who prefer to use reduced bonuses. I will rectify the situation shortly and will provide both options in the future.

[CaesarVincens]

Dime, I am wondering whether you are considering adding any version of XC to XGM 5.8 at all.

[DimeBagHo]

I've been thinking about it.

I think the horse factions should have their own barracks. It probably wouldn't hurt to add barracks for some other factions, though I'm not sure they are needed.

I also think the colonies should have faction specific descriptions ('Greek Colony' or 'Roman Colony' instead of just 'Western Civilised Colony' for example), but I'm not planning to add faction specific colony buildings at this stage.

Could you give me a brief description of the other building changes?

[CaesarVincens]

Right now, Scythia and Parthia do not share a barracks or colony, as one is barbarian, and the other eastern, creating headaches for me and the player.

I think a Carthage specific barracks wouldn't hurt also, they are the most dissimilar "eastern" faction after all. And feel free to use the Roman and Hellenic colony descriptions from XC if you wish. There aren't any other faction specific descriptions, but those are a start.

In XC Basic, there are only new colonies and barracks, no other changes.

But in full XC, there is also a post-Marian fourth level auxiliary barracks, which allows recruitment of certain mercenaries anywhere, depending on the faction. Also barbarian factions get some new buildings, before the Marian Reforms, Gaul and Germania get a circle of elders, similar to an academy, but only for barbarian factions, also barbarian factions gain access to fourth level farms with a paved road present, and they have access to foundries when they take a huge city with iron present. After the reforms, Iberia can build the arenas; Thrace, odeons; Scythia and Iberia lose the siege workshop before the reforms, and all (except Scythia) gain access to paved roads.

Also, I've restricted the presence of huge cities to certain provinces, and added a few hidden resources for this and other things. Oh, and one thing I think is rather inspired, I added a "minor" culture tree, which lets me have provinces which must be colonized. This also includes a Egyptian culture and Indian culture building.

[Zarax]

I've been thinking about it.

I think the horse factions should have their own barracks. It probably wouldn't hurt to add barracks for some other factions, though I'm not sure they are needed.

I also think the colonies should have faction specific descriptions ('Greek Colony' or 'Roman Colony' instead of just 'Western Civilised Colony' for example), but I'm not planning to add faction specific colony buildings at this stage.

Could you give me a brief description of the other building changes?

Dime, imho culture specific colonies are a great addition and an excellent base for present and future roster fine tuning.
If we play that card well we have a chance to have something pretty unique and kick butts even against major mods.

Let's be honest, XGM never had so much people helping development, it would be a crime to waste so much work imho.

[DimeBagHo]

The new barracks, and some of the other new buildings, won't have any complicated or unpredictable effects on game mechanics, so they can be added with minimal testing.

Culture specific colonies, on the other hand, have a lot of potential to mess up the culture mechanics. So they will require a lot more testing to make sure that the mechanics work out in a reasonable way.

[CaesarVincens]

Yeah, I worked on the culture capabilities of the colonies so as to give a smaller effect for factions other than their own, but there are still some bugs to be worked out.

[atraps]

Hm I havent tried this sub-mod yet, but I dont see any reasons why not. Ill come back with some feedback of what I think.

[atraps]

Sorry for double posting, but here is my report on XC Basic 1_1_5.

Well I have to start out that I like it it alot, great job CaesarVincens . The culture buildings are now more specific instead of just being eastern, western, and barbarian civilized which is really neat and gives a nice flavor to the factions.

I have a couple of suggestions-

1.) I noticed that some native culture buildings and colonies, at the start of the campaign have cultures that do not match. For example in Southern Iberia there are Carthaginian settlements which have "Native Culture - Iberian" buildings but the culture of that building is Carthaginian (which means it is built by Carthage) which if you think about it is impossible as only the Iberians can bulid Iberian culture buildings. So what I am saying is that the culture buildings' cultures, that are found at the beginning of the campaign, should match as to what factions can bulid them. In fact this should be true for all buildings at the start of the campaign, for example I found Eastern cultured buildings held by rebel settlements in Northern Africa, now I wonder what Eastern factions came and bulit those cites there , my point is those buildings should be Carthaginian not Eastern.

2.) This may need alot of work to do (im not sure as im not familar with doing this), but I think it would be relevent to rename Carthage's culture to Punic instead of Carthaginian, like the same thing that was done to the Ptolemaic Empire, we renamed their culture Ptolemaic instead of Egyptian.

Now for a couple of bugs I found-

1.) I get this error message on exit.
Note that I used the unreduced bonuses EDB file.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

2.) Now I found something quite weird and confusing. Take a look at the two pics. The minor thing is that how come the same building has two different pictures? The major thing is that how does the same building have two different bonuses? (Wait is it because the Independent Gauls have different bonuses from that building then the Germans? If thats the case then its not a bug but its still kinnda strange.)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Well I believe that is all for now, but I still have yet to try the main version of XC.

[CaesarVincens]

Well I have to start out that I like it it alot, great job CaesarVincens . The culture buildings are now more specific instead of just being eastern, western, and barbarian civilized which is really neat and gives a nice flavor to the factions.

Thank you.

I have a couple of suggestions-

1.) I noticed that some native culture buildings and colonies, at the start of the campaign have cultures that do not match. For example in Southern Iberia there are Carthaginian settlements which have "Native Culture - Iberian" buildings but the culture of that building is Carthaginian (which means it is built by Carthage) which if you think about it is impossible as only the Iberians can bulid Iberian culture buildings. So what I am saying is that the culture buildings' cultures, that are found at the beginning of the campaign, should match as to what factions can bulid them. In fact this should be true for all buildings at the start of the campaign, for example I found Eastern cultured buildings held by rebel settlements in Northern Africa, now I wonder what Eastern factions came and bulit those cites there , my point is those buildings should be Carthaginian not Eastern.

I have been thinking about that too. Right now, this method is a holdover from regular XGM, but I may change it so the culture penalty will still apply.

2.) This may need alot of work to do (im not sure as im not familar with doing this), but I think it would be relevent to rename Carthage's culture to Punic instead of Carthaginian, like the same thing that was done to the Ptolemaic Empire, we renamed their culture Ptolemaic instead of Egyptian.

That's not too much work. I can include that in the next release.

Now for a couple of bugs I found-

1.) I get this error message on exit.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll get that fixed.

2.) Now I found something quite weird and confusing. Take a look at the two pics. The minor thing is that how come the same building has two different pictures? The major thing is that how does the same building have two different bonuses? (Wait is it because the Independent gauls have differnet bonuses from that building then the Germans? If thats the case then its not a bug but its still kinnda strange.)

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

What's going to really confuse you is that those are actually to different buildings. That's why there are two different effects and pictures.

Well I believe that is all for now, but I still have yet to try the main version of XC.

You really ought to try the full version. There are quite a few great things in it that aren't in basic.

[atraps]

What's going to really confuse you is that those are actually to different buildings. That's why there are two different effects and pictures.

Oh I see, but my question is why are they two different buildings?

You really ought to try the full version. There are quite a few great things in it that aren't in basic.

I will. I have one question though, since I installed basic do I need to reinstall XGM or can I just put the full version on top of the basic version?

[CaesarVincens]

The full version should completely overwrite basic.

As to why there are two different native buildings, as you saw, one has 25% conversion in addition to its base conversion, and the other has only 5% conversion. So the native culture in Galatia is less likely to convert.

[atraps]

Ok here is my report on Extended Cultures 2_3_8.

I have to start out with saying that I have some like and dislikes.


My likes-

1.) I like that specific buildings for specific factions are required to be able to build colonies. Though I have been thinking about it and I think it would make, and maybe more, sense that this is backwards, so certain factions cant build those buildings until they build a colony. For example, right now the Romans cant build a colony in a settlement until they build highways in that settlement, well I think it would make sense that the Romans cant build highways in a settlement until they bulid a colony in that settlement. What do you think? Wasnt it historical that the Romans didnt bulid highways until a territory was Roman?

2.) I like that you gave some factions new buildings, like for example, the circle of elders.

3.) Then again, I like that colonies are more specific, faction-wise, like I said in my report on basic.

4. ) I like the new Ethnic traits, they add some new unique flavor to the game. Great job Suppanut.

My dislikes-

1.) Well first of all I dont like that barbarians can build huge cites. I know that it is very hard for them to build huge cities, but it is still possible, and if they do build a huge city then it means they are just as civilized as "civilized" factions which wasnt the case.

2.) What I dislike even more then the barbarians being able to build huge cities, is the fact that huge cities are now restricted to certain provinces. I really think this isnt such a good idea, imo, as it points gameplay down a straight historical path, which will, ultimately lead to a boring gameplay.

3.) Also I think the forth level auxiliary barracks is a good idea but its stretching things kinnda far. Imo, AOR units shouldnt be that universal.

Suggestions-

1.) I think it would be look better if you gave the circle of elders the picture of the Warlord's hold, as the sacred grove picture looks kinnda out of place.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Instead of this.


Give it this.

2.) What I think would be a neat idea is if regular barracks are totally unbuildable until colonies are built, so the first and second level barracks should require a colony. I think it would be fun, and challenging to only be able to rely on AOR units until you build a colony.

3.) I know this might sound like a wild idea, but is it possible to replace the barracks to stables for cavalry factions? I think this would be a good idea as it doesnt make sense for factions that rely almost all on cavalry to recruit cavalry (which is 99% of their units) from barracks.

Bugs-

1.) For some reason the barbarian Mining complex doesnt show up in the Building Browser but it is available to construct.

2.) The barbarian Monolith is called Sacred Circle in its description.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I have a question regrading culture buildings, as I am a little confused as to how their levels work. Well from my understanding from before I always thought that there was 5 culture buildings, Colony 1, Colony 2, Colony 3, Colony 4, and Native Culture (which is the same as Colony 4 but isnt buildable). But I notice in the building browser that it doesnt show Colony 1, it starts off with Colony 2, but I know Colony 1 exists as third level barracks require it to be built. How exactly do the culture buildings level up?

Sorry for going off-topic, but it would really help me out if this was explained to me, and I think in this thread my question will be more likely explained in detail.


Overall I think Extended Cultures is a great Sub-mod and if someone hasnt tried it yet they should.

Also CV 1 other suggestion. I think it would be better if in the first post you included exacly what changes are made by XC to XGM, as its kinnda hard to find those changes in-game as some are only available in certain circumstances which dont happen all the time (like the buildings that require the reforms). I also think more people will try this Sub-Mod if you did as now they will know if they like or dislike it, whereas to before they didnt try it because they didnt know they would like it (well thats the reason why I was hesitant to try it ).


p.s.

As to why there are two different native buildings, as you saw, one has 25% conversion in addition to its base conversion, and the other has only 5% conversion. So the native culture in Galatia is less likely to convert.

I dont think that is such a great idea, because, one, It doesnt seem right for 2 buildings that are technically the same to have different bonuses, I know historically Galatia was hard to convert but im a beilever that TW games shouldnt be limited down the straight path of history, as then all we would get is a recreation of it, which is boring. And two, people are gonna get confused by this and ask many questions about it, like I did.

[CaesarVincens]

Wow, thanks for the feedback.

Ok here is my report on Extended Cultures 2_3_8.

I have to start out with saying that I have some like and dislikes.


My likes-

1.) I like that specific buildings for specific factions are required to be able to build colonies. Though I have been thinking about it and I think it would make, and maybe more, sense that this is backwards, so certain factions cant build those buildings until they build a colony. For example, right now the Romans cant build a colony in a settlement until they build highways in that settlement, well I think it would make sense that the Romans cant build highways in a settlement until they bulid a colony in that settlement. What do you think? Wasnt it historical that the Romans didnt bulid highways until a territory was Roman?

Well, the first level is unrestricted, so the area is Roman.

2.) I like that you gave some factions new buildings, like for example, the circle of elders.

3.) Then again, I like that colonies are more specific, faction-wise, like I said in my report on basic.

Thank you.

4. ) I like the new Ethnic traits, they add some new unique flavor to the game. Great job Suppanut.

He is a super man; he really knows his way around traits and ancillaries.

My dislikes-

1.) Well first of all I dont like that barbarians can build huge cites. I know that it is very hard for them to build huge cities, but it is still possible, and if they do build a huge city then it means they are just as civilized as "civilized" factions which wasnt the case.

Barbarian factions can't build huge cities in the latest versions of XC; they do get some buildings at huge level after the reforms, but that's it.

2.) What I dislike even more then the barbarians being able to build huge cities, is the fact that huge cities are now restricted to certain provinces. I really think this isnt such a good idea, imo, as it points gameplay down a straight historical path, which will, ultimately lead to a boring gameplay.

I understand where you are coming from, restrictions aren't much fun most the time, but I don't think the restriction of huge cities is going to be too much of one. As for being to "historical", first, not many cities at this time would have gotten past the "city" stage, even with possible shifts in importance most would probably never reach the necessary size, second, there are enough cities, spread widely enough that you will always have one or two in the area. Plus, this makes huge cities actually mean something, they are now something to fight over, instead of just being another level for your settlements. But it's not for everyone, but at least give it a try.

3.) Also I think the forth level auxiliary barracks is a good idea but its stretching things kinnda far. Imo, AOR units shouldnt be that universal.

Well, it takes a while to get to, the reforms have to happen first, and there aren't really that many units that show up everywhere, though, I think I shall restrict it to port areas.

Suggestions-

1.) I think it would be look better if you gave the circle of elders the picture of the Warlord's hold, as the sacred grove picture looks kinnda out of place.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Instead of this.


Give it this.

Thanks, I've been meaning to change the icon, but I haven't found a good one.

2.) What I think would be a neat idea is if regular barracks are totally unbuildable until colonies are built, so the first and second level barracks should require a colony. I think it would be fun, and challenging to only be able to rely on AOR units until you build a colony.

That is interesting, but I won't be doing that.

3.) I know this might sound like a wild idea, but is it possible to replace the barracks to stables for cavalry factions? I think this would be a good idea as it doesnt make sense for factions that rely almost all on cavalry to recruit cavalry (which is 99% of their units) from barracks.

I can change the descriptions if that's what you mean, but there isn't any gameplay difference. Plus you need to think of the barracks not in vanilla RTW terms, but more as a military recruitment center.

Bugs-

1.) For some reason the barbarian Mining complex doesnt show up in the Building Browser but it is available to construct.

I know about that, but there isn't anything I can do.

2.) The barbarian Monolith is called Sacred Circle in its description.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

I'll get that fixed.

I have a question regrading culture buildings, as I am a little confused as to how their levels work. Well from my understanding from before I always thought that there was 5 culture buildings, Colony 1, Colony 2, Colony 3, Colony 4, and Native Culture (which is the same as Colony 4 but isnt buildable). But I notice in the building browser that it doesnt show Colony 1, it starts off with Colony 2, but I know Colony 1 exists as third level barracks require it to be built. How exactly do the culture buildings level up?

Sorry for going off-topic, but it would really help me out if this was explained to me, and I think in this thread my question will be more likely explained in detail.

There are actually six culture buildings, the five you mention, plus a second native culture (and the first native culture is actually equal to the first colony). Anyway, the first colony is able to be built at the village level, so you can always make it, but this means it doesn't show up on the building tree screen.

Overall I think Extended Cultures is a great Sub-mod and if someone hasnt tried it yet they should.

Thank you very, I'm glad you like it.

Also CV 1 other suggestion. I think it would be better if in the first post you included exacly what changes are made by XC to XGM, as its kinnda hard to find those changes in-game as some are only available in certain circumstances which dont happen all the time (like the buildings that require the reforms). I also think more people will try this Sub-Mod if you did as now they will know if they like or dislike it, whereas to before they didnt try it because they didnt know they would like it (well thats the reason why I was hesitant to try it ).

I'll get something more substantial on the OP.

p.s.
I dont think that is such a great idea, because, one, It doesnt seem right for 2 buildings that are technically the same to have different bonuses, I know historically Galatia was hard to convert but im a beilever that TW games shouldnt be limited down the straight path of history, as then all we would get is a recreation of it, which is boring. And two, people are gonna get confused by this and ask many questions about it, like I did.

Well, Galatia isn't that hard to convert, if a non-barbarian faction takes it, it will lose its large conversion bonus, and only have the base 15%. So it's no different than a regular native culture if a non-barbarian faction controls it. But it keeps the barbarians there more easily; and it's not too hard to convert even with that huge bonus, I've seen it done/did it myself.

[Publius Quirinus]

I just realized that every version of Extended Cultures has been using non-reduced AI bonus. I am very sorry for those who prefer to use reduced bonuses. I will rectify the situation shortly and will provide both options in the future.

Is a version supporting reduced AI bonuses avalaible now?

Sorry for asking stupid question.

[CaesarVincens]

There are no stupid questions.

And, yes, reduced bonuses are the default installation now, with unreduced bonuses as an easily installed option.

I'll put that on the front page...

[Publius Quirinus]

Thanks, downloading now.

[atraps]

Well, the first level is unrestricted, so the area is Roman.

Oh sorry, I didnt notice that.

Barbarian factions can't build huge cities in the latest versions of XC

Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up. (I didnt notice that because I thought the settlements I held atm with the barbarian factions didnt have the huge city hidden resource.)

they do get some buildings at huge level after the reforms, but that's it.

Yea I noticed that, and I think its a good idea to do this without giving them huge cities. The fifth level temples is good, but the barracks, well I noticed they didnt give any good benefits (only some exp. upgrades) to make them worthy enough to build them barring in mind the 10% decrease in tax income.

I understand where you are coming from, restrictions aren't much fun most the time, but I don't think the restriction of huge cities is going to be too much of one. As for being to "historical", first, not many cities at this time would have gotten past the "city" stage, even with possible shifts in importance most would probably never reach the necessary size, second, there are enough cities, spread widely enough that you will always have one or two in the area. Plus, this makes huge cities actually mean something, they are now something to fight over, instead of just being another level for your settlements. But it's not for everyone, but at least give it a try.

As much as I disagree, you do have a point. Too bad there isnt an easier way to make huge cities harder to become available without restricting them all together from certain provinces. Maybe in the future a better idea will come up.

Thanks, I've been meaning to change the icon, but I haven't found a good one.

Also another thing about the Circle of Elders. I noticed they are a different building from the Tavern buildings. (doesnt this use up another one of the building trees in the EDB?) Maybe it would be better if you made the Circle of Elders building an upgrade for the Bardic Circle. Also I think it would be better if you replaced the Arena with the Circle of Elders for the Iberians.

I can change the descriptions if that's what you mean, but there isn't any gameplay difference. Plus you need to think of the barracks not in vanilla RTW terms, but more as a military recruitment center.

Sorry if I didnt explain myself cleary. What I meant is replacing the cavalry factions' (Parthia and Scythia) barracks building with the Stables building (remember the old stable building in vanilla from which recruitment of cavalry was made) Well I think it would make more sense if these cavalry factions build stables instead of barracks as almost all of their recruitment is cavalry.

I know about that, but there isn't anything I can do.

Hm thats weird. In BI the barbarians can build Mining Complex and it shows up in the building browser.

There are actually six culture buildings, the five you mention, plus a second native culture (and the first native culture is actually equal to the first colony). Anyway, the first colony is able to be built at the village level, so you can always make it, but this means it doesn't show up on the building tree screen.

Ah I see, thanks for answering my question. But now that raises more questions. Why are their two native buildings? Isnt one sufficent? Also is there a reason why the first level colony is available at village?, as its kinnda confusing not being able to see it in the building browser. Is it possible to move it to town level, so its less confusing?

Well, Galatia isn't that hard to convert, if a non-barbarian faction takes it, it will lose its large conversion bonus, and only have the base 15%. So it's no different than a regular native culture if a non-barbarian faction controls it. But it keeps the barbarians there more easily; and it's not too hard to convert even with that huge bonus, I've seen it done/did it myself.

Still I dont think that is a good enough reason to have two different buildings for the same building just so the other building can provide more bonuses to the Independent Gauls in Galatia so they can hold it easier. Besides the Independent Gauls have big bonuses when it comes to happiness and law.

Also one more suggestion. I think it would be useful if all buildings that provided benefits to have their benefits cleary stated in the building details. So for example if a trader provides an increase in trade income, instead of just saying "trade effect" it should say "Increases trade income by x%".

p.s. Remember im just throwing ideas out, you have to decide if they are good or bad

[CaesarVincens]

Yea I noticed that, and I think its a good idea to do this without giving them huge cities. The fifth level temples is good, but the barracks, well I noticed they didnt give any good benefits (only some exp. upgrades) to make them worthy enough to build them barring in mind the 10% decrease in tax income.

This is partly a holder over from the Post Marian project, where there where supposed to be fifth level only units. I see no reason to remove it however, if the player doesn't want to build it, they don't have to.

As much as I disagree, you do have a point. Too bad there an easier way to make huge cities harder to become available without restricting them all together from certain provinces. Maybe in the future a better idea will come up.

Well, some mods require a certain building, usually of the market line to be present, XGMDiadochi does this in fact. That is an alternative.Also, if you wish huge cities to be unrestricted for yourself, either out-comment or delete the part in EDB that says "and hidden_resource hugecity".

Also another thing about the Circle of Elders. I noticed they are a different building from the Tavern buildings. (doesnt this use up another one of the building trees in the EDB?) Maybe it would be better if you made the Circle of Elders building an upgrade for the Bardic Circle. Also I think it would be better if you replaced the Arena with the Circle of Elders for the Iberians.

The reason it is separate from the tavern is because they fulfill different functions, plus then they can't both be present. As for giving it to Iberia, that is a possibility; I've been thinking of consolidating Iberian and Celto-Germanic trees, and this would be included for them then.

Sorry if I didnt explain myself cleary. What I meant is replacing the cavalry factions' (Parthia and Scythia) barracks building with the Stables building (remember the old stable building in vanilla from which recruitment of cavalry was made) Well I think it would make more sense if these cavalry factions build stables instead of barracks as almost all of their recruitment is cavalry.

Well, sorry if I didn't make my meaning clear, most buildings have no special code, there are a few things that the stables have coded that the barracks doesn't have (mostly, if not only, for the battlemap) but otherwise, simply changing the description is sufficient.
Hm thats weird. In BI the barbarians can build Mining Complex and it shows up in the building browser.

Hm thats weird. In BI the barbarians can build Mining Complex and it shows up in the building browser.

It's because the barbarian mines are at the same level as the regular upgraded mines, the game won't show buildings buildable at the village level or a second building in a tree buildable at the same level as a first.

Ah I see, thanks for answering my question. But now that raises more questions. Why are their two native buildings? Isnt one sufficent? Also is there a reason why the first level colony is available at village?, as its kinnda confusing not being able to see it in the building browser. Is it possible to move it to town level, so its less confusing?

To answer these questions fully, you'll have to talk to Dime. I just expanded his system of colonies to more factions.

Still I dont think that is a good enough reason to have two different buildings for the same building just so the other building can provide more bonuses to the Independent Gauls in Galatia so they can hold it easier. Besides the Independent Gauls have big bonuses when it comes to happiness and law.

Duly noted.

Also one more suggestion. I think it would be useful if all buildings that provided benefits to have their benefits cleary stated in the building details. So for example if a trader provides an increase in trade income, instead of just saying "trade effect" it should say "Increases trade income by x%".

Part of this is the game's coding, building effect descriptions are not always clear as you've pointed out, but I could put a line in the description for some buildings.

p.s. Remember im just throwing ideas out, you have to decide if they are good or bad

I'll take all the ideas I can get, and it's not so much whether they're good or bad as whether they fit with the mod or not.