Christian Centric?

[Copperknickers II]

On the whole, I have to say this is a great mod with huge potential, but i have spotted a small problem. Why do you only have three Islamic factions? I think in your haste to include all the politics of Italy and Europe, you have forgotten one of the major features of this era, the Islamic movements in Asia and the middle east. While the Muslims in Iberia were bogged down in the reconquista at this point, in the east the crusaders had whole heaps of peoples to contend with as well as Turkey and Egypt.

I fear that Islam is a little underrepresented in this mod, which may have some adverse affects on the historical accuracy of what is looking like the next EB, both in terms of historical accuracy and everything else.

[Basileos]

Me as histoirical researcher for the moors, i'm going to make this the best faction ever.
Beside, because of lack of more muslim factions, we are planing to make the islamic factions superpowers.But more about this later.
This mod is going to be a supermod, so we won't leave the islamic factions unnoticed.maybe it won't be a BC, but surely something to look out for!

[Copperknickers II]

"Me as histoirical researcher for the moors, i'm going to make this the best faction ever."

That's interesting. The reason i made this thread is that i applied for the job of a researcher of an Islamic faction, when i noticed there were only three of them. With any luck, i might just end up being your partner. Even if i don't cut it, i can see your hands are more than capable of making the Islamic factions what they deserve to be.

Still, I am surprised you didnt include peoples like Khwarezmia, they would have been a very valuable addition imo.

[Resurrection]

We would like to represent Middle-East faithful and detailed, but unfortunately it is not possible. Faction limit is 30 and you have one bad option and two good options.

First (bad) option is, that you can balance both regions (Europe and Middle-East), but then you will be greatly missing in both because of the game limits. This is the way of SS and even if it is a great mod, this degrades it to mere "mod of the game".

The other two options are either focus on Europe or on the Middle-East. Obviously BC already does the ME. So we chose to represent as accurately as possible Europe and more precisely - Western-Central Europe. Eastern Europe (and I mean real East in Russia) will be similarly underrepresented as ME, becuase we do not have another 10 slots for all slavic-russian factions at least for Balkans, not mentioning Russia itself...

As for Italy: Medieval fragmented Italy was far more important for all Medieval Europe then ME. People really worked hard on faction list and everyone had on mind, that what you suggest must not happen. We simply have not to abandon or underrepresent any region for other less important one (like Italy vs Balkans or ME). That's why DotS is supermod and strive to be the best mod out there in every aspect of the game. But it is still a game and it has its limits, which we cannot cross.

As Basileos (and Hross elsewhere) said, we have means to compensate this though. Superpowers concept, AI "cheats" etc. So don't worry :-)

PS. As for Kwarezm, it's off of the map...

[Copperknickers II]

If your focusing on Western europe, its not really a supermod, EB was so good because it wasnt centric on one thing, but included everything, at the price of detail on one thing. Germany should have had loads more factions, but then there might not have been room for another culture. As well as the features, of course. If this is a supermod, EB is more of a Hypermod.

But i suppose you cant play your own mod on the success of someone else's; original content is better than copied good content. So i commend for making your own decisions about these thingss.

[Hengest]

Sounds good man, I look forward to you registering...

[bkyn75]

That's why DotS is supermod and strive to be the best mod out there in every aspect of the game. But it is still a game and it has its limits, which we cannot cross.

I tend to agree with Copperknickers. It seems like this is going to be a Western European 'supermod'. Kinda like how Rome Total Realism wasn't as interested in the East as EB was. And not a true 'supermod'.

Which is fine. But just seems a shame as there doesn't really seem like there is going to be a perfect mod for M2TW like EB was for RTW.

Actually there is going to be a perfect mod - EBII! How could I forget!

EDIT - Oh wow. Checked out the faction list. Didn't realize you were including Sweden. It would seem to me that, in the spirit of compromise, they could be replaced with another Turkic faction. I.E. Split the current Turks into the Seljuqs and the Rum Turks. If memory serves correct, they were fragmented by your start date. Would make a good dynamic in the East.

[Slash5]

You might as well remove the Middle-East off of the map if you are going to under-represent the area. It simply isn't fun to play a faction that shares a quarter of the map with one other faction, there's nothing to do.

Turning them into super powers is hardly a compensation, especially when playing as them. So you're probably better off using the faction slots on the area you actually plan to focus on.

[Hengest]

I completely disagree. I will repeat Resurrection's comment.
That's why DotS is supermod and strive to be the best mod out there in every aspect of the game. But it is still a game and it has its limits, which we cannot cross.

The focus that we are giving the three Muslim factions in no way makes them less than 10% of the faction list, on the contrary.

We have worked on theoretical ideas during our lengthy planning and discussions within our huge team, as well as memebrs of several other mods, including very motivated Eastern researchers. What we arrived at was just this situation of three Muslim superpowers.

When I say 'superpower' I am talking in the theoretical ideas we use, the HRE and the Byzantines are two other superpowers. One for each religion, Catholic (20 factions) and Orthodox (7 factions), whereas all the Muslim factions (3 factions) will be super factions. I hope you can see how that makes them formidable.

If you are going to discuss the map then that is a completely different argument than talking about how many factions are 'Eastern'. As I and other DOTS members have already explained, size (or numbers) isn't everything because strength or quality can be measured in different ways. That is our plan with the Mulsim factions, to give them greater power than other factions to represent them realistically. The reason why we have not pushed the map range eastwards is to maintain the quality and depth of gameplay and realism in the map we have. Removing the Middle East from the map is ridiculous as it unbalances Europe, and yes we are focussing on Europe because in case you haven't noticed- MTW and M2TW are all based on Europe and the Middle East is partially included, the parts that were intensely connected to Europe, those parts (map and factions) we have also kept BUT intensified from the original game.

With the map and factions DOTS has, we will be delivering a REALISTIC(ally inspired), EXCITING and INTENSE game. Total War is the concept we have dedicated ourselves to.

You will just have to trust us and wait to see what we develop, without more info I think that it is impossible to prejudge our work.

[bkyn75]

We have worked on theoretical ideas during our lengthy planning and discussions within our huge team, as well as memebrs of several other mods, including very motivated Eastern researchers. What we arrived at was just this situation of three Muslim superpowers.

When I say 'superpower' I am talking in the theoretical ideas we use, the HRE and the Byzantines are two other superpowers. One for each religion, Catholic (20 factions) and Orthodox (7 factions), whereas all the Muslim factions (3 factions) will be super factions. I hope you can see how that makes them formidable...

...As I and other DOTS members have already explained, size (or numbers) isn't everything because strength or quality can be measured in different ways. That is our plan with the Mulsim factions, to give them greater power than other factions to represent them realistically.

Hmm. Don't know how realistic it would be to make them superpowers. I'm interested to see their starting situations. Especially the Turks. They especially don't seem to jibe with the concept of a superpower Turkish faction.

Around the time of your start date, the Rum Turks had recently broken away from the Seljuqs. The Seljuqs were faced with losing their empire as it would soon splinter even further into smaller Atabegs such as the Zengids and the Danishmandids. The Abbasids would soon regain a semblance of their former independence.

Just seems to me that's a lot of interesting and important history to be lost in the name of focusing on the West. Shame really.

Removing the Middle East from the map is ridiculous as it unbalances Europe, and yes we are focussing on Europe because in case you haven't noticed- MTW and M2TW are all based on Europe and the Middle East is partially included, the parts that were intensely connected to Europe, those parts (map and factions) we have also kept BUT intensified from the original game.

I think he was being facetious. And besides, just because CA chose to ignore the East doesn't mean you have to follow lead. Don't forget CA also included 3 ahistorical Roman factions and Mummy Egypt and assorted historical anomalies in RTW. Good thing mods like EB corrected those glaring absurdities and other injustices.

[nnnm]

the Turks will start as the Great Seljuk Sultams them self, not rum Seljuks or others so we don't make them superpower because they are the strongest. Egypt however is weaker than Great Seljuks sultans, but still very strong until their last 11 years in Al-Aadid times they become weak.

[Basileos]

This won't be a second BC, that's for sure, but the islamic factions won't be misrepresented,at all. We have plenty of ideas, and we hope can make those ideas reality.As the muslims were very advanced and cultured, you might taste of these cultures while playing the moors or the egyptians.
We know that there are a lack of factions in the east.We couldn't add more because of the limit of 30 factions.That is why we are going to give the rebel system a complete make over.Rebels will become smarter and tougher, so our intention is to make rebels feel like a real (AI) faction.Some rebels will even have their unique units, like the irish will have their own unique irish units.
So you might perhaps expect a rebel army of Damascus besieging crusader Jerusalem having some of their own units.Also,besieging and conquering rebel cities will be much more difficult now.You might have conquered the whole middle east by capturing rebel towns in the kingdoms crusader campaign,you may forget it to do the same thing in DotS. Ofcourse rebels won't feel or be completely like real factions like the Great Seldjuks, but it will surely be an interesting oponent,and surely something to watch out for.

[Copperknickers II]

So all missing factions will be not so much missing, as lamentably unplayable due to CA's restrictions? Its good that you take priority over somethings instead of making ill advised compromises. I hate people who try to satisfiy two parties, and end up not satisfying either.

And for everyone else not on the team, remember, we can make cristicisms on the factions selected, but there are two things you have to remember. As they say, they are restricted by what they can include. Mod leaders have to make decisions, and if that means sacrificing factions in the middle east, then we get better european factions. When one door opens, another door closes.

The second thing is each mod leader has a vision. This vision is the mod, what its aim is, how it will look, but above all, what is in it. Their vision may not include a BC style take on the middle east, but that is their choice. Its their mod, and a mod must have an aim. If accurate portrayal of europe is part of that aim, thats good, if lots of middle eastern factions aren't, however dissapointed we may be about this, that is what they want. At the end of the day, theya re doing this for us, and we should be grateful that they have included factions like Bohemia and Sweden. For all you know, they may turn out to be your favourite faction and you may never even get to the middle east.

So once more i'd like to say, great mod and i sincerely hope you give me the honour of having a part in it.

[AnthoniusII]

Each moding team sets some priorities...
Unfortunatly a team can not sutisfy every one..So it tries to show something spesial that other mods do not have!
Other wise all mods would be clone ones without reason of existance!
BC focus on the islamic world and it has done a great job..
Other mods focus on Hungarians or Germans etc...
DotS aims to present europe in the most realistic way to show the extrimly complicated politics that were in that times,plus to present more realistic the monastic orders and the north factions in a way no other mod have done until today!!

The mods official traitor...

[Basileos]

So all missing factions will be not so much missing, as lamentably unplayable due to CA's restrictions? Its good that you take priority over somethings instead of making ill advised compromises. I hate people who try to satisfiy two parties, and end up not satisfying either.

And for everyone else not on the team, remember, we can make cristicisms on the factions selected, but there are two things you have to remember. As they say, they are restricted by what they can include. Mod leaders have to make decisions, and if that means sacrificing factions in the middle east, then we get better european factions. When one door opens, another door closes.

The second thing is (and having a mod myself i can testify to this) each mod leader has a vision. This vision is the mod, what its aim is, how it will look, but above all, what is in it. Their vision may not include a BC style take on the middle east, but that is their choice. Its their mod, and a mod must have an aim. If accurate portrayal of europe is part of that aim, thats good, if lots of middle eastern factions aren't, however dissapointed we may be about this, that is what they want. At the end of the day, theya re doing this for us, and we should be grateful that they have included factions like Bohemia and Sweden. For all you know, they may turn out to be your favourite faction and you may never even get to the middle east.

So once more i'd like to say, great mod and i sincerely hope you give me the honour of having a part in it.

Thanks for your constructive critics and opinions mate!

[Basileos]

(sorry for double post)

[beavis]

[quote=Copperknickers;3248785]So all missing factions will be not so much missing, as lamentably unplayable due to CA's restrictions? Its good that you take priority over somethings instead of making ill advised compromises. I hate people who try to satisfiy two parties, and end up not satisfying either.

And for everyone else not on the team, remember, we can make cristicisms on the factions selected, but there are two things you have to remember. As they say, they are restricted by what they can include. Mod leaders have to make decisions, and if that means sacrificing factions in the middle east, then we get better european factions. When one door opens, another door closes.

The second thing is (and having a mod myself i can testify to this) each mod leader has a vision. This vision is the mod, what its aim is, how it will look, but above all, what is in it. Their vision may not include a BC style take on the middle east, but that is their choice. Its their mod, and a mod must have an aim. If accurate portrayal of europe is part of that aim, thats good, if lots of middle eastern factions aren't, however dissapointed we may be about this, that is what they want. At the end of the day, theya re doing this for us, and we should be grateful that they have included factions like Bohemia and Sweden. For all you know, they may turn out to be your favourite faction and you may never even get to the middle east.


You are the one that started this thread, why the change of opinion?

[beavis]

You might as well remove the Middle-East off of the map if you are going to under-represent the area. It simply isn't fun to play a faction that shares a quarter of the map with one other faction, there's nothing to do.

Turning them into super powers is hardly a compensation, especially when playing as them. So you're probably better off using the faction slots on the area you actually plan to focus on.

I agree, if you like playing a faction you want to have challenging enemies.

Mods tend to have a lot of personal reasons for faction choices as modders have visions of their mods goals. This mod seems to have the guelph-ghibelline conflicts in Italy and Scandinavia as priorities. Even the choice of Islamic factions is generic :moors, turks and egypt. Some of these states had just about as much diversity and conflict amongst themselves as the Italian city-states.
I don't think they will change this version of the mod but I think they had hinted that different versions will be made available.

Let's hope that this is still possible and in future versions more diverse choices will be made.

Some choices that could be dropped imo are Sicily ( The Hauteville dynasty only lasted about 150 years before the state passed to HRE, French and Aragonese control), The Crusader States ( both these factions could be replaced by a generic Norman faction, since the Hautevilles also created the principality of Antioch) and the Papal states could be redone into a Papal and Guelph Sates fatcion (not completely historical but about as historical as lumping all the West African and Iberian Muslims into the Moors). This would probably free up some slots for say Ifriqiya (the Merinids, Hafsids), Zengids, Ilkhans or whatever.

So although this post may have sounded critical I would like to finish by saying that the work seen so far looks very good. Good Luck

[nnnm]

first, thanks for your nice feeling toward eastern faction
second, the factions list is finale and don't worry about eastern faction, you will like them

[The Cobra]

quantity doesn't matter, all what matters is quality, if the Muslim factions are strong then their number isn't of any importance, since in most mods i can capture all of Egypt and the Levant in a couple of turns with just one full stack of crusaders.