The Great Seljuks

[nnnm]

curved swords were known since early islamic time in Persia and Khorassan, however all one edge blades were not common for regular troops, but also every nation kept their customs too.
Yatagan were not used in that time, but Kilij swords were know even before seljuks times and sometimes used by regular troops sometimes but not as main weapon.and early curved sword were little curved but not like later once which was very curved and shorter.

[ShayanMirza]

The earliest yataghans known date as late as the early 16th century, and they are in essence a long, heavily decorated knife (see the one in the Met, which belonged to Suleyman the Great). I think they have no place in the mod.

ShayanMirza, all the evidence suggests that it was actually the Persians, who acquired the sabre from the Turks, not the other way around. Even Persian-centric writers on the subject as Mr. Khorasani agree with this. Before the Seljuks the Persian swords were straight, and only later we tend to see sabres in the Persian miniatures, obviously brought there by invading Turks.

As for the typical Ottoman hilt, I think what is attributed to the Ottomans might actually have been a Mameluke creation. For a pure Ottoman sword, I think one needs to look at earlier examples and my favorite is the sword of Mehmet II Fatih, the conqueror of Constantinople. My feeling is that it is much closer to earlier Seljuk swords in blade and hilt shape than the 19th century swords people insist on posting in this thread.

Yes, Persians adopted curved sabers from various Altaic groups (such as my ancestors) but that distinct blade geometry posted above is Persian-derived, and many Ottoman blades were manufactured in Persian Khorasan.

Incidentally fellas, most of the swords you're posting are hundreds of years too late and completely anachronistic, like giving a knight a light cavalry saber.

[The Noble Lord]

Hi,


The sword-making "industry" was very much developed in Khorassan. Some of the best swords were manufactured in Mashad, Herat, and other places. It is very feasible that Seljuks while passing through Khorassan picked up some artizans and used them later in Asia minor.

Now, it maybe that Persians acquired some knowledge frome the Turks when it comes to the light sabre, but evidence suggests that later Seljuk and Ottoman sword was just I shouldnt say copy of the Persian sword.

According to the evidence that I have, jatagans, sabres, and swords of the Seljuks and Ottomans were mixture of the two schools of sword-making. Persian and Turkish one. And thats what made them very succesful when they confronted the Europeans (Holy Land and the Balkans) in the early campaigns.
Research is in progress.


CHEERS

[nnnm]

the Seljuks didn't pass through Khorassan. the Great seljuks sultans ruled over Khorassan and Persia for about 150 years. then all who ruled over persia since the Seljuks were turks by the way. then all islamic countries from Khorassan to egypt and Anatolia from Seljuks time to ottoman were heavily influenced by the Great Seljuks Military overall

[Kara Kolyo]

The way to Khorasan was open for the Ottomans even in late 14 and early 15 century. Men like Haji Bektash Veli and some of his students like Osman baba, who's grave is near Haskovo in southern Bulgaria came from Khorasan acording to writers like Evlia Chelebi. Thede guys were really influential for the janisaries. So my neighbour could be right

[Kavhan Isbul]

ShayanMizra, I am very curious about your statement that the geometry on Mehmet II Fatih's sword is Persian derived. I guess you mean the yelman (the widening at the top of the blade, incidentally yelman is a Turkish word). Could please post any references to support this, such as perhaps early examples of similar blades, predating Persian contact with Turks?
The only sword which was purely Persian, was the shamshir, in the sense known by collectors today, which features a slender, deeply curved blade with no widening at the tip. Even it was developed from the sabre, which was a Turkic invention, not a persian one.
But I am sure you have reasons for your statement and I would love to learn from your knowledge.

[The Noble Lord]

the Seljuks didn't pass through Khorassan.

The Khorassan existed much before the arrival of the Seljuks, and at the end they were no different than the other "passers by". What I was saying was that sword-making industry was wery well developed before the arrival of the Seljuks. Well, Mongols ruled Persia and Khorassan much longer than the Seljuks but they are still remembered as the passers by. The Alexander of Macedon too. Just because you rule certain area for a number of years, that doesnt make you a local. You r still invader or passer by.

Men like Haji Bektash Veli and some of his students like Osman baba, who's grave is near Haskovo in southern Bulgaria came from Khorasan

You r right my friend. Haji Bektash Wali came from city of Neyshabur in Khorassan. He was Bektashi Sufi mistic. His origins are Persian. He was buried in southern Bulgaria. Becuse Janissaries infantry was closely affiliated with Bektashis.

The other great Sufi mistic that left Khorassan on the eve of Mongol onslaught is Jalaluddin Rumi Balkhi, also known as Mawlana. He comes from city of Balkh in northern Afghanistan. He was forced to find refuge in Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. He founded Mevlevi Sufi order also known as the dancing dervishes.

When it comes to the Great Seljuks, they were just one of the many invaders that marched through Persia.


CHEERS

[Tunch Khan]

The Khorassan existed much before the arrival of the Seljuks, and at the end they were no different than the other "passers by". What I was saying was that sword-making industry was wery well developed before the arrival of the Seljuks. Well, Mongols ruled Persia and Khorassan much longer than the Seljuks but they are still remembered as the passers by. The Alexander of Macedon too. Just because you rule certain area for a number of years, that doesnt make you a local. You r still invader or passer by.



You r right my friend. Haji Bektash Wali came from city of Neyshabur in Khorassan. He was Bektashi Sufi mistic. His origins are Persian. He was buried in southern Bulgaria. Becuse Janissaries infantry was closely affiliated with Bektashis.

The other great Sufi mistic that left Khorassan on the eve of Mongol onslaught is Jalaluddin Rumi Balkhi, also known as Mawlana. He comes from city of Balkh in northern Afghanistan. He was forced to find refuge in Seljuk Sultanate of Rum. He founded Mevlevi Sufi order also known as the dancing dervishes.

When it comes to the Great Seljuks, they were just one of the many invaders that marched through Persia.


CHEERS

Unlike any other "invaders" though, today the Turkic people in Iran make up a significant part of Iranians along with Persians and Kurds. Through years of fusion with Turks during Seljuk, Akkoyunlu, Timurid, Safevid rule, Persia transformed into Iran which includes Turks as an integral part. Same goes for Mewlana and others significant figures of Persian origin being integrated into Turkish/Anatolian culture. The differences are more like artificial concepts of later times.

[Kara Kolyo]

Yeah the turks weren't just passers by. The early ottoman rullers quite often went back and forward between central asia and Anatolia and kept the relations going. Exuse me gentlemen but i'm going back on the balcony to watch the show - http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5h...On16QD91MESUO1
@The noble lord - the tomb of Osman baba is in Bulgaria among many other turbes of heterodox holy men. Haji Bectash Vely rests in Turkey i believe

[The Noble Lord]

Unlike any other "invaders" though, today the Turkic people in Iran make up a significant part of Iranians along with Persians and Kurds. Through years of fusion with Turks during Seljuk, Akkoyunlu, Timurid, Safevid rule, Persia transformed into Iran which includes Turks as an integral part. Same goes for Mewlana and others significant figures of Persian origin being integrated into Turkish/Anatolian culture. The differences are more like artificial concepts of later times.

I agree that Turkic peoples like the Azeris, Turkmens, and Qizilbash are now integral part of modern Iran. The "fusion" does happen and its a consequence of history. Like the Turkish minority in Bulgaria for example.
Some invaders leave more traces of them some less. Like the Tartars in Russia. And there are so many examples.
Or the Huns that conquered large parts of Europe and now there is no trace of them left. But the Hephalites, Oghuz Turks, and Seljuks were invaders after all. The Persians fought for centuries against them on their north-eastern borders. The Persian Sassanids were very successful in fighting off the attacks. Especially their generals like Smbat Bagratuni and Bahram Chobin. But, at the end like you said some differences are artificial concepts that are created much later.


CHEERS

[AlphaDelta]

mod is very good but a few there is the deficiency

in the game Seljuks soldiers sword is very bad, this wrong

The reason for this is highlighted by the confusion in this thread. Even semi-experts and historians don't seem to know what type of swords they carried.

Cheers

[nnnm]

This is the sword of AL-Musta'Sim the last Caliph, that is the style of swords used in that era
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...el_30_ISAS.jpg
and those are mamluk and Ayyubids swords
Nazm Adin Ayyub
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...rd_ISAS_pl.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...ISAS_pl_80.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...65_ISAS_pl.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...6_and_57_1.jpg
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...AS/ISAS_70.jpg

and this sword from Damascus very similar to the curved swords used by seljuks then
http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/5...mtheottuv7.jpg
and mamluk curved sword
http://i4.photobucket.com/albums/y11...68_ISAS_pl.jpg

see this topic [images source]
http://forums.swordforum.com/showthread.php?t=72695

[AlphaDelta]

Some beautiful swords, but not Seljuk.

Cheers

[nnnm]

Some beautiful swords, but not Seljuk.

Cheers

those are good examples of the swords been used in seljuk era spicily in the holy land in the time of the crusades , though those once have much more decorations

[AlphaDelta]

those are good examples of the swords been used in seljuk era spicily in the holy land in the time of the crusades , though those once have much more decorations

And this is a sword that was used in the seljuk era in the holy land in the time of the crusades.

http://www.renstore.com/mmRENSTORE/Images/PMI10010.jpg

But that does not mean to say it was used by seljuks.

[nnnm]

I mean the muslims side AD !!!!!!!!

[AlphaDelta]

I know I was trying to make the point that you can't really put Kurdish, Turkic and Syrian swords in the same basket. I would agree however, that a slightly curved sword would be the most suitable for the Turkoman/Seljuk light units in BC.

Cheers

[Strelac]

While smaller part of BC concept was intentionally misrepresented, majority of BC was implemented in best faith and with best effort to reflect historical accuracy. Unfortunately the entire mod is becoming subject to measure which can sometimes only be described as personal opinion, something that’s becoming rather annoying especially since its being sneaked into every thread. Please take these words in consideration and try to avoid making criticism with historical relevance of personal nature to developers of the mod.
All historical discussion should be conducted inside historical thread (somewhere on bottom of this forum), and again without relevance to any of the mod’s work.
I mean, the entire thread to critic the sword,…do you guys not remember the vanilla scimitars…c’mon...