!! this is not a flamewar !! topic-Orcs VS Men

[The King Of Peasants]

I didn't read to much of the second page and don't know that much about lotr but people in this thread seem to put way to much stock in the outcome of helm's deep! Just on tactical levels its 2k v 10k but the 2k have a fortress if you looked at real history in sieges 5-1 odds are not always enough. From my humble opinion it always seemed that men are faster and smarter but orcs/uruk are much stronger yet dumber. And saying that a bloodline would have to do with soldiers strength rather then training is pretty bad too. But I am not anywhere near an expert on lotr...

[Varjon]

Elven kid (about 30 years old) who is noldor would beat soldier of Gondor's army who had been in wars through his whole life, in Tolkien's world bloodlines and race means more than training

[Glorfindel]

i agree with The King Of Peasants about the sieges and consider that Uruks would win if help didn't come (they were surrounded)

Elven kid (about 30 years old) who is noldor would beat soldier of Gondor's army who had been in wars through his whole life, in Tolkien's world bloodlines and race means more than training

allow me to disagree, Varjon

and that's why. Elves look like 17 in the body in the age of 50 so you are not right an Elf, even, a Noldorin one, who is an adolescent in body cannot actually win against an experienced Veteran man

Besides, maybe bloodlines count a lot in Tolkien but don't count SOOOO much, remember that in the book "The Children of Hurin", the man Turin actually wins a Sinda in a swordfight (because the Elf envied the favor he was shown by Thingol, i don't remember his name though)

[warman222]

hello, new guy here, interesting debate, not sure who's right

[sirfiggin]

I guess when holding a pass or choke-point, what matters is the quality and stamina of the defenders

[warman222]

good point there!

[Eleril]

This topic is more than a half-elven could stand!
There are some points I want to make so I categorized them.
First-as I said before Orcs are as strong,some even stronger,as human.BUT when we talk about a man of Gondor with almost pure bloodline thinks become different-in physical aspect,that is.The Numenorians are said to be taller and stronger and swifter than their brethren from Middle-earth and the have more endurance.If we look at this like a biologist would we can say that the gen that makes the Numenorians different is passed from a parent to his/hers child.So the child would have the same physical aspects as his parent an if trained-even better.But if a parent of Numenorian descend marries a Northman,for example,the genes of the child will be "mingled".But if trained they could reach the heights they should be if it was from a pure Numenorian descent.
The same goes for Orcs-imagine the child of an Uruk and a Snaga.
Second-Men usually defeat Orcs for they have greater morale,discipline and tactical training.This isn't always true but every rule has it's exceptions right?
Third-someone said that there are no true Numenorians in the Third Age and the ones that are left are Dunedain and they are not one and the same.Quite the opposite.The meaning of the word Numenor(full-Numenore) is Western Land.It comes from the Quenya word for West-Numen/a and the word nor/e-meaning land,country.So NUmenorian is Man of the West,Wester man.Dunedain means exactly the same.Dun is from Sindarin and means West and Edain means Man,one of the Three Houses of the Elvish friends.The corresponding word in Quenya is Atan.So in Queny a Man of the West could sound like Numenatan which equals Dunedain as a meaning.

[Glorfindel]

^i just adore this guy

EDIT: what means Eleril?

[Eleril]

^i just adore this guy

EDIT: what means Eleril?

Well,thanks.

And about the name-it comes from El\Ellen which means star and -ril meaning light.So Eleril is Starlight.

[The Count(er)]

This guy sure knows his Tolkien stuff

[Iustinianos]

I agree with all your points except the third.

Third-someone said that there are no true Numenorians in the Third Age and the ones that are left are Dunedain and they are not one and the same.Quite the opposite.The meaning of the word Numenor(full-Numenore) is Western Land.It comes from the Quenya word for West-Numen/a and the word nor/e-meaning land,country.So NUmenorian is Man of the West,Wester man.Dunedain means exactly the same.Dun is from Sindarin and means West and Edain means Man,one of the Three Houses of the Elvish friends.The corresponding word in Quenya is Atan.So in Queny a Man of the West could sound like Numenatan which equals Dunedain as a meaning.

There where no Numenoreans in Middle-Earth in the War of the Ring. Numenoreans are men who are from Numenor agree? There was no one in Middle-Earth who came from Numenor during the WotR, thus there are no Numenoreans left in Middle-Earth. Dunedain are men who are descendants of Numenoreans who where born in Numenor(Elendil/Isildur/etc.), the Dunedain(of the Third Age) however are Gondorians and Arnorians(sp?) not Numenoreans.

I understand the way you think about it and you are no doubt correct about the meaning of the words

[Varjon]

allow me to disagree, Varjon

and that's why. Elves look like 17 in the body in the age of 50 so you are not right an Elf, even, a Noldorin one, who is an adolescent in body cannot actually win against an experienced Veteran man

Besides, maybe bloodlines count a lot in Tolkien but don't count SOOOO much, remember that in the book "The Children of Hurin", the man Turin actually wins a Sinda in a swordfight (because the Elf envied the favor he was shown by Thingol, i don't remember his name though)

Well that guy was kind of a evil elf, don't you think, I remember that he attacked from back to Húrin even he didn't really do anything and Húrin was heros of edain of First Age, at least I can't compare a regular soldier of Gondor's army as same lavel as Húrin.

Well maybe in close combat elf would lose but with bow there is no doubt that elven kid would have better accuracy.

[Glorfindel]

He was Hurin's son, Turin

and there are some no-nice Elves, that doesn't mean that they are weak. and he was a Sinda, a Grey Elf

To Ioustinianos
Eleril explained the thing with biology
From that point of view, i think he is right (my opinion)

[Phalanx300]

I mostly go by the looks and things of the movies, so were the Uruk-Hai in the books really that unorganised?

In the movies they seem to be as disciplined as the Romans, while willing to give their lives. I would say that a trained man equals a Uruk-Hai, possibly being even worse then a Uruk-Hai. And about formations and weaponry, I think that Uruk-Hai are really top contenders. (Testudo, Phalanx, sharp shield, Phalanx soldiers have a club on left hand armor, sword soldiers have 2 "spikes" at right hand armor, heavy armored soldiers). I know that these are movie facts, but I mostly go by the movies.

Also, the Uruks seemed to form formations without orders of officers, doing it naturally. Also a movie fact, but then again, movies can't really be trusted but this mod was going by the movies right?

And on a side note, cannot wait for the hobbit !

[Erunion Telcontar]

Well, technically, there were no true Numenoreans, as there is no Numenor. However, there were still people of Numenorean descent, with full Numenorean bloodline, so with all that strength/etc. When a scotsman moves to Canada, and becomes a citizen thereof, you become Canadian, even if you have a full Numenorean bloodline. So although people with Numenorean blood exists, there is no Numenor, therefore there are no Numenoreans...

[Iustinianos]

Well, technically, there were no true Numenoreans, as there is no Numenor. However, there were still people of Numenorean descent, with full Numenorean bloodline, so with all that strength/etc. When a scotsman moves to Canada, and becomes a citizen thereof, you become Canadian, even if you have a full Numenorean bloodline. So although people with Numenorean blood exists, there is no Numenor, therefore there are no Numenoreans...

Exactly my point :thumbsup4

[Erunion Telcontar]

can anyone explain how it is possible to use (and make) steel bows

i am just curious

Hmm... Theoretically, it's possible, just highly unlikely. To maintain a degree of flexibility without seriously compromising the structure of the bow would be next to impossible. Therefore, I'm guessing that the people of Numenor had some next-to-magical ability with smithing. (The flexibility whilst retaining structure could have been done with steel cable, but I presume that that would lack the elasticity necessary for effective archery.)
If you could however gain a bow with the strength of steel whilst retaining structural integrity and creating elasticity, it would be insanely powerful...

Note: I have heard of using steel for crossbow arms, but I'm not sure how that works. Anybody have experience with metalworking here? If so, could you enlighten us folks with somewhat less knowledge?

[The Count(er)]

movies can't really be trusted but this mod was going by the movies right?

Nope we're going off the books, only using the movie for visual reference

[The Big Red 1]

Hmm... Theoretically, it's possible, just highly unlikely. To maintain a degree of flexibility without seriously compromising the structure of the bow would be next to impossible. Therefore, I'm guessing that the people of Numenor had some next-to-magical ability with smithing. (The flexibility whilst retaining structure could have been done with steel cable, but I presume that that would lack the elasticity necessary for effective archery.)
If you could however gain a bow with the strength of steel whilst retaining structural integrity and creating elasticity, it would be insanely powerful...

Note: I have heard of using steel for crossbow arms, but I'm not sure how that works. Anybody have experience with metalworking here? If so, could you enlighten us folks with somewhat less knowledge?

I was thinking about that the whole time.

[Phalanx300]

Nope we're going off the books, only using the movie for visual reference

Ok . Can't wait to see some Isengard pictures .