Character discussion thread

[wilddog]

This thread is a placeholder just to start a discussion on some of the characters in the mod. I intend to list the main ones here and depending on what people want I will add to the list to confirm whether they are planned to be in or not.

It's really intended for those with a knowledge of the period to give some info about characters, why they should be in and hopefully a bit of discussion as tow hich faction they should belong to.

[wilddog]

Obvious character is

Dafydd ap Gruffudd
- Probably one of the most interesting characters of the age.
- Joined his elder brother Owain and fought a civil war against Llywellyn.. but lost.
- Tried to poison Llywellyn but failed and fled to Edward I.
- Fought against Llywellyn in the Welsh war of 1277 and was rewarded by Edward I with the cantrefs of Rhufoniog and Dyffryn Clywyd
- Caused the second Welsh war in 1282 when he attacked Hawarden castle.
- Outlived Llywellyn.
- Captured by the English.
- First major political prisoner to be hung, drawn and quartered by Edward I - at Shrewsbury 1283.

[Lothe]

I stumbled across this with only a few minutes until i have my tutor arriving so I've only got one for you; Madoc ap Llywelyn. He seems to have been the last of the "recognised Welsh princes".

If only your mod was for the Second Baron's War; I finished reading Falls the Shadow recently which would've proved very useful.

----

And my tutor still hasnt arrived so; John Balliol, "King" in name only of Scotland; he was favoured by King Edward during an arbitration over another (possible character?) and then lead the alliance with France against England after Edward began to treat Scotland as a vassal.

[wilddog]

@Lothe
Balliol's a faction and so the John Balliol you're referring to is in. I may of had to alter his 'birth date though' (can't remember exactly at the moment).

Madoc ap Llywelyn - Won't be in initially but is likely to be a scripted character for Welsh revolts (depending on what happens).

[wilddog]

John de Hastings will be in.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[

[Lothe]

Since I've got time on my hands I'll give you a hand, I'll be hunting down minor characters for you since I expect you've got the majority of the major characters already covered, tell me if you've got patches you haven't looked at yet.

I'll be updating this list over time.

Brother John of Acre (Of the Order of St. Thomas, makes the name ridiculously long); an architect acquired in the Levant by Edward I while on his Crusade, Brother John designed the Tower of London as it is today. Implementation: As an ancillary, If added I suggest he grants -1 to Squalor and something which reduces the effect of a siege since he also designed some of London's defences.

Andrew Moray: Scottish Upstart, he regained control of Northern Scotland 6 years after Edward I was proclaimed Lord Paramount of Scotland. He was a competant General and fought at Stirling, where he died. I suggest a decent mid-range commander, mabye a spawn?

[wilddog]

Lothe
Good suggestions. I planned to include Andrew Moray as a named Character in the game.

Areas I need to sort out in more detail is tied with some of the families particularly the Irish factions (but to a certain extent also with some of the others. By this I mean some of the family tree connections (mainly the Irish/Anglo Irish) and then some of the characters particularly if associated with particular families. Unfortunately the texturing is taking as usual a lot longer than expected so any help with the names part would be great (I've added in some "dummy" generals for some factions anyway).

[helmersen]

John de Hastings will be in.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[

How do you get the units to look that good?!

[wilddog]

How do you get the units to look that good?!

Thanks for the compliment. Mostly I keep going back and redoing bits... and so I redid the retinue to accompany the character again (I've still got a minor change to the shield colour then I'll post it again). I'm finally off work so should do the last bit tomorrow.

Other than that we've been fiddling around to agree colour combinations which make a little more sense in heraldic terms. It won't be precise but I think its a reasonable compromise (I still like to try and keep a certain amount of realism where possible in terms of the units). The problem was that the character and retinue needed to be tied to similar colours or the Horse colours didn't really work.

[Lothe]

Alright, I took a look at the history of the ruling families in Ireland at the time, and theres a slight difficulty. You've got a dominant English rule in Ireland at the time as a result of a Papal Bull resulting in Ireland being granted to King John. So, do you want English Rule or, of what little there may have been, Irish Rule?

[wilddog]

@Loth - I was looking for names or family connections tied to the 4 factions I'm having. O'Connor, O'Brien, O'Neill and McCarthy.

Other Irish based (only) factions on the anglo side are deBurgh and Fitzgerald.

So any help there would be appreciated - mainly on the Irish sides. Period is really 1280- 1330 so really more interested in connections there.

By the way you are right essentially this period saw the maximum English rule then a decline though mostly (AFIK) after the intervention of the Scots.

[Aéd Liath]

Donal O'Neill (?-1325) invited the Scots to invade Ireland after their victory at Bannockburn, he wrote a letter to the Pope and even yielded his right to the High-Kingship to Edward Bruce to help make his invasion legitimate. He'd probably make a good addition to the O'Neills.
Felim O'Conor 1293-1316 (I know a cousin of the O'Conor Don's and he says they prefer just one 'n') was a pretty cool character. He was the king of Connaught and sided with the Scottish invasion to help drive the English out of Connaught, but was killed at Athenry. The Irish chronicles had great hopes for him.
Donnchad and Murtough O'Brien might also be good characters. Both were rivals for the Kingship of Thomond, and Donnchad sided with Felim and the Scots. After Donnchads defeat Murtough was free to turn on the de Clares and he drove them out of Thomond.
Red Domnall MacCarthy 1293-1302 would have been in charge of Desmond at the time. He was pretty cool, religious, a famous warrior and quite popular. His unfortunate son, Young Domnall, got assassinated though.
How do you intend to represent the Irish and Gaelic Scottish, if you don't mind me asking? They used Táinistry rather than primogeniture so son's didn't necessarily take over from their fathers. Are you going to use normal game mechanics? Its probably reasonabe to be honest, as the game doesn't account for blood and puts adopted sons on a par with born sons.

[The Bruce]

Andrew Moray: Scottish Upstart, ....

Upstart? He was a noblemen who loyally fought for his King, was captured after the battle of Dunbar but escaped to lead a fight back against an occupying army. He led a hugely successful campaign in the north of Scotland and was almost certainly the senior commander at the battle of Stirling Bridge. Had he not died of his wounds he would be more widely regarded as one of Scotland's greatest heroes (which he was). Much of the credit was taken by Wallace because he survived but Moray's contribution was probably more significant.

Someone who defends his country and his King against a foreign invader is not an upstart.

[Gorrrrrn]

Some more possible possible characters for PKH

Bishops etc

Bek, Anthony, Bishop of Durham (d. 1311)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antony_Bek

Burnell, Robert, Bishop of Bath and Wells (c. 1239 – 1292)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Burnell

Bury, Richard de, Bishop of Durham (b.1287 – d. 1345)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Aungerville

Langton, William, Bishop of Coventry and Lichfield (died 1321)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Langton

Melton, William, Archbishop of York (d. 1340)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Melton

Orleton, Adam, Bishop of Hereford ((d. 1345)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adam_Orleton

Pecham, John, Archbishop of Canterbury (c. 1230 – d. 1292)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Peckham

Reynolds, Walter, Archbishop of Canterbury (d. 1327)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_Reynolds

Stapledon, Walter, Bishop of Exeter (b.1261 – d.1326)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Walter_de_Stapledon

Stratford, John Archbishop of Canterbury (d. 1348)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de_Stratford

Winchelsey, Robert, Archbishop of Canterbury (c. 1245–1313)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_Winchelsey

minor nobility etc

Audley, Hugh Earl of Gloucester (1289 - 10 November 1347)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_de..._of_Gloucester

Beaumont, Henry de, 1st Baron Beaumont (died March 10, 1340)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Henry_de_Beaumont

Berkeley, Thomas de 1st Baron Berkeley (1245 - 23 July 1321
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_...Baron_Berkeley

Brittany, John of (Earl of Richmond) (c. 1266 – 17 January 1334)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_of...rl_of_Richmond

Clifford, Robert (Baron de Clifford) (c. 1274–1314)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...on_de_Clifford

Clinton, William de (Earl of Huntiingdon) (1304 – 1354)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William..._of_Huntingdon

Courtney, Hugh de (Earl of Devon) (14 Sept 1275/6--23 Dec 1340)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_de..._Earl_of_Devon

Despenser, Hugh (Earl of Winchester) (1262 – 27 October 1326)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugh_le..._of_Winchester

Ferrars, John de (Baron Ferrars) (1271 - c.1324)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_de...rs_of_Chartley

Gaveston, Piers (Earl of Cornwall)(c. 1284 – 1312)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Piers_G...rl_of_Cornwall

Harclay, Andrew (Earl of Carlisle) (ca. 1270-1323)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_...rl_of_Carlisle

Hastings, John (Baron Hastings) (1287- 1325)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Ha...Baron_Hastings

Montague, William (Earl of Salisbury and King of the Isle of Man)(1301 – 1344)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William...l_of_Salisbury

Pole, William de la (d. 1366)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_de_la_Pole_of_Hull

Scrope, Geoffrey le (c. 1280 – 1340)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geoffrey_le_Scrope

Stafford, Ralph (Earl of Stafford) 1301 – 1372)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ralph_S...rl_of_Stafford

Ufford, Robert d' (Earl of Suffolk) (1298 – 1369)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Robert_...arl_of_Suffolk

[wilddog]

Rozanov - thanks for that.

I think some of the people though are out of the time period we're covering unfortunately and I haven't totally worked out what to do about the bishops.

[Gorrrrrn]

have removed a few of the people whose active life postdates your time period.

as for arch/ bishops in game one possibility is to make them ancilliaries that can be awarded to factions in they have sufficient influence in relevant towns. We can assume the country is solidly catholic so no religious conversion is needed. churches can be built for public order and to keep Monarch happy.

As the King takes the role of pope - bishops could be refashioned to be more agents of faction influence. They could form a Grand council where they hold elections for Chancellor - (the Monarch not being an elected post.) They could also travel around trying to win towns over to the various factions (incl players.)

I'll PM more ideas for kingasPope

[wilddog]

@Rozanov
Thanks for the PM. I'll get back to you on that as soon as I get back to that subject. It was an incorrect usage of this that gave us the original crash we took so long to find... but that was resolved (by Mak). I needed it for the one obvious aspect of the pope but haven't gone done all avenues of its usage yet... due to the settlement work.