The Performance of the Phalanx against other infantry...

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

...Seems to be absolutely essential to me. In Vanilla (and in many mods) Pikemen perform somewhat...less than well against other infantry. This saddens me.

Will Hoplites live up to their old RTW glory, an impenetrable wall of steel that not even the hardiest legionary can pass?

[SigniferOne]

Yes, that is the goal.

However, it depends on what you mean that vanilla MTW2 pikes perform less than normal. In my experience they perform just abysmally. I don't know what in your experience has made them only 'less' than normal: is it giving them extraordinary stats, or have them have better sword stats than the swordsmen they are faced against? Because in purely pike formation, they are absolutely horrible -- they break formation as soon as contact happens, and even marching across plain ground leaves them completely disordered and out of formation.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

Let me clarify: I think the spearwall is the biggest piece of ever. It has no strategic point whatsoever, except against cavalry.

[SigniferOne]

Ok, if that's the perspective we start from, then I'm definitely trying to make an improvement in PItalica. One of the improvements is already made, in that the unit marches in complete formation, without making a complete mess of itself. Also, at the moment in test battles, especially if you keep the unit in Guard mode, it admirably keeps battle formation and keeps the enemies at pike's length.

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

the unit marches in complete formation

Great!

it admirably keeps battle formation and keeps the enemies at pike's length

Now that...that is what is what I want to hear! Awesome!

EDIT: That's so good it deserves rep!

[ElSypatiko]

That is it .
If you have trained soldiers in phalanx and you have no way to outflank them ;i would not be glad to attack them

[Valerius Tiberius]

but did a phalanx historicaly perform that well (like in rtw) against cav??

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

...Yes?

[Plan C]

Whoa, back from oblivion at last!...

As for proper pike phalanx - it was nigh on impenetrable from the front, regardless of whether foe was mounted or not. Macedonian army was trained rather well due to semi-professional structure Philip had introduced and performed incredibly well against anybody.

Cavalry had no chance in hell of puncturing a dense phalanx formation head-on. What people seem to forget also is that even in a close-quarter fight the phalangists were more than equal to most infantry so their secondary stats shouldn't really be low.

my 2c

[Hister]

marrow, yep what you are saying is correct! Our phalangites will be a tough nut to crack!

[SigniferOne]

Yep sure indeed! They'll wreak havoc on the Italians, and your other Greek hoplites will have to contend with them.

[Zenith Darksea]

As for proper pike phalanx - it was nigh on impenetrable from the front, regardless of whether foe was mounted or not. Macedonian army was trained rather well due to semi-professional structure Philip had introduced and performed incredibly well against anybody.

Except of course at Pydna, Cynoscephalae, Magnesia and various other engagements with Roman infantry (including Magnesia is a little unfair, since the Seleucid elephants accidentally rolled up their own infantry, but it shows another vulnerability).

[ElSypatiko]

Yesterday ,today ,tommorow :

Flanking

[Valerius Tiberius]

i suggest making phalanxes weak against pila, cause they were

about the cav thing, i was talking about a classic greek phalanx, overhand stuff.
like Spartiatia and such had, what if there was a cav charge on that?

[Hister]

Never tried that at home for real ( ) but I guess first 2 ranks of hoplites would get serious injuries/would be annihilated while others would finish of the horse riders if they would not manage to turn back for another charge.

[SigniferOne]

All units using a shield_wall get a hardcoded defense bonus, and a small attack penalty. Thus any units in the shield_wall, which will only be hoplite units, will be very difficult to displace by any charge. Also I think units in shield_wall get a mass bonus, and it will be hard to wedge yourself in and displace their formation. Thus, horses will not have a fun time charging into hoplites. This unfun time will be different from the unfun time of charging into a Macedonian phalanx, and instead of being utterly impaled by pikes, here your horses will simply try to crash upon the hoplites and hardly hurt anyone.

[Hister]

Well said Signifer!

[versvlees]

I always hated the MTW2 pikemen. They are just bad against everything, not to mention that by the first touch of their pikes they pull out the swords. (I'm sure there would be some difference between the phalanx of the classical times and medieval ones.)

I'm glad to hear they atleast keep the enemy at bay with their spears and march in formation. I cant wait to see the Paeninscula Italica phalanx in action.




(or post some screens )

[Valerius Tiberius]

i meant in real life Signifer one
but tnx for anwser Hister and many tnx for a better view on PI phalanx Signifer!!!!
i'm eagerly waiting for it

Valerius Tiberius

[StaggerLee]

Well, first of all, as far as I've understood it, the phalanx wasn't really a defensive formation at all, but rather meant for a heavy charge.

As far as cavalry goes, I doubt that the pre-macedonian phalanx was very tested in that department, since those armies mostly fought steppe-style cavalry using hit-and-run tactics rather than head-on charges.