Pilgrimage: Putting Flesh Eating Streptococcus into the Bite of Crusades/Jihads!

[MORBIDYAM]

Tired of this?

Does a Jihad army sitting in a boat in a lake next to Jerusalem make you utterly sick?

Do you think that masses of armies standing idly beside a single city while one army sieges it, does not quite represent the epicness behind crusades?

Are you tired of seeing crusades/jihads that, even if successful, end with some faction losing the city as soon as the Crusade is successful, and no other changes take place in the region?

Well then listen up!

I believe Crusades should be accompanied by an event called Pilgrimage.
Pilgrimage would entail a large group of high piety priests/imams spawning at the epicenter of the crusade/jihad and then being scripted to convert provinces within the general vicinity of the Crusade/Jihad. If these priests are allowed to convert a significant portion of the populace, the outlying provinces will become of the faction that took the city upon which the crusade was declared, and then held it for at least 5 turns.

This would not only make jihads/crusades actions to be feared, but it would also help to shift the power balances in the regions and make the ai more unpredictable so that the political map is not the same every single game as it is now!

We may not be able to fix the ai, but this is the 2nd best option I think and will have the intended effect that we all want crusades to have: Total chaos in the regions effected.

So I call upon you, people who grow tired of the ineptitude of the things this entire game was based around, to cry out passionately for this thing! (or at least discuss the possibilities)

If you have modding skills feedback on the positives/negatives/overall implementability of this Pilgrimage idea it shall be much appreciated!

[spanish_emperor]

sounds good but i don't exactly understand how it would work!

[Caesar Clivus]

I assume you mean that this would only happen for the AI and not the player?

[MORBIDYAM]

sounds good but i don't exactly understand how it would work!

well I wouldn't know how to implement it myself, but I'm thinking basically that if you just make a script that tells priests to spawn 5 turns after (or directly following if that is easier) a crusade. These priests would then spread out to the nearby regions and quickly convert the populace (because they would have really high piety), so I'm thinking these priests could be spawned with a trait or something that says that if the priests convert the 50% of the populace in a city nearby the crusade then that city would rebel to the faction of the priest of highest piety that converted it (since there might be other priests)

I really have no idea how feasible that would be, but I'm hoping people that would have experience in such issues would shed some light on the matter.

The idea came to me when I saw that picture on the post your empires forum, and I just saw that Jihad army in a boat while all those armies just sat around Jerusalem not doing anything, and I was so disgusted that I figured well if no ones going to be able to make the ai more competent then, might as well see if its possible to approach it this way.

I assume you mean that this would only happen for the AI and not the player?

yeah would be kind of insane if the player could do it.

[Caesar Clivus]

Well I dont know much about scripting but what you describe should be possible.

[MORBIDYAM]

Well I dont know much about scripting but what you describe should be possible.

Well thats a good start then!

I think its a good solution, not only from a gameplay perspective, but also historically, I mean it seems kind of weird that you have a crusade but not an influx of religious figures. Ive always thought it kind of defeats the purpose if the Crusade/Jihad armies simply take the city and then just say welp and go home, and its all done just like that with no effect on any nearby provinces. It makes it really boring as the Kwarezmians whenever you come all that way westward only to encounter the fatamid caliphate controlling everything and just Tortosa sitting there with 2 templar spearmen in it.

If KK designed this mod around the crusades, and we have to have the templars then I figure we might as well have the best crusades out of any mod!

[Darviathar]

This is an interesting idea, but think about how this would work for the constant crusades against excommunicated factions. Those provinces should already be catholic, if this event is triggered there, it would pretty much automatically give away large portions of the crusade target's empire. The computer has enough trouble avoiding excommunication as is. I like the idea of scripted priests and imans spawning, but I don't think you really want to go into "auto-capturing" settlements.

[BioHazard2121]

Well thought Darviathar! A solution for this would to stop the Pope from calling cruasades against random places, or excommonicated factions.

This would also help a lot in many ways, especially when the pope calles cruasades on Rebel Baghdad, or Cairo, or Vilnius the first 15 turns of the game, they should instead focus much more on Jerusalem. This would also make this a lot more realistic as who has ever heard of a true Holy Cruasade agaisnt Cairo or Baghdad or Vilnius. There were some "minor" cruasades agaisnt Lithunia, but the Teutonic order were the only ones who truly took part in them...

~BioHazard

[Zymran]

its' a good idea in principle....sounds like it might have some problems in practice. What about losing the religious conversion->ownership script and just spawning loads of priests and free upkeep religious fanatic armies? The priests would spread unrest in nearby provinces and the free armies could conquer, without being too indestructable (if they were just pilgrims/fanatics and one or two knight units)...

Just an idea

[Chim]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum section.

[strife1013]

Looks like the picture I took yesterday lol

[MORBIDYAM]

Looks like the picture I took yesterday lol

yeah thats the one, did that jihad army sitting in the boat ever do anything?

This is an interesting idea, but think about how this would work for the constant crusades against excommunicated factions. Those provinces should already be catholic, if this event is triggered there, it would pretty much automatically give away large portions of the crusade target's empire. The computer has enough trouble avoiding excommunication as is. I like the idea of scripted priests and imans spawning, but I don't think you really want to go into "auto-capturing" settlements.

Well it wouldn't hurt the excommed factions because if any catholic faction took the settlement it would spawn priests, because those cities are already catholic there would be no penalty in the outlying provinces, they just become more catholic which really doesn't hurt the excommed faction. I thought about the automatic giveaway thing but I realized that a crusade was pretty damaging to the faction it was called on. I mean if there are 10 full stacks participating in a crusade and they take the city, then all the armies go back home, the city is left with a garrison of 2 spear militia, and then taken by a small army 1 turn later, that does not adequately represent the forces that were there.

Ideally I would rather have crusading armies be distributed evenly throughout the lands of the faction on which the crusade is called, and be scripted to take other cities besides the one on which the crusade is directly called, but I figure few have the skill to do that, and those that do will probably never read this post, so I went with the idea I thought was easier.

The negatives are that it would destroy some factions, but that did happen in real life and if every faction is powerful then the game is boring, we need to go against a superpower with a real Empire once in a while, and because the ai cannot forge Empires themselves, they have to be helped out.

[Tsarsies]

Interesting idea.

You want to spawn priests\imams in the target crusade\jihad region???

Is that what you are ultimatly suggesting?

The only issue i can see is What factions would priests\imams spawn from(priests - papal states... but imams?)

Unless controlled to specific regions (the holy lands only) the script would be ridiculously large and slow the game too much. And controlling it to only work on certain regions should be easy to do. You wouldn't want priests spawning if a crusade was called to excommunicated france for example.

Should jihad targets be limited to the holy land (in regards to imam spawnings)

[MORBIDYAM]

Interesting idea.

You want to spawn priests\imams in the target crusade\jihad region???

Is that what you are ultimatly suggesting?

The only issue i can see is What factions would priests\imams spawn from(priests - papal states... but imams?)

Unless controlled to specific regions (the holy lands only) the script would be ridiculously large and slow the game too much. And controlling it to only work on certain regions should be easy to do. You wouldn't want priests spawning if a crusade was called to excommunicated france for example.

Should jihad targets be limited to the holy land (in regards to imam spawnings)

Well that is basically what I'm suggesting except to script the priests to convert the outlying settlements and somehow via some trait or something, once they convert enough, give those settlements to whoever captured the city on which the crusade was called. If the script would be too insane for every region, then I guess it would be bes to confine it to hotspots (Toulouse, Vilinus, Cairo, Jerusalem, Constantinople, Cordoba)

Basically, the intent is is to somehow get the ai in crusades/ Jihads to capture the settlements surround the settlement on which the crusade/Jihad was called and shift the power in the region, because its kind of dumb that the outlying regions are not at all effected by crusades/jihads. Its just ultimately I find it extremely disappointing when I see something like the picture in the first post: massive armies sitting around one city whilst every other nearby province is completely unaffected by all these armies or just the crusade/jihad in general.

[Firebat11]

Well thought Darviathar! A solution for this would to stop the Pope from calling cruasades against random places, or excommonicated factions.

This would also help a lot in many ways, especially when the pope calles cruasades on Rebel Baghdad, or Cairo, or Vilnius the first 15 turns of the game, they should instead focus much more on Jerusalem. This would also make this a lot more realistic as who has ever heard of a true Holy Cruasade agaisnt Cairo or Baghdad or Vilnius. There were some "minor" cruasades agaisnt Lithunia, but the Teutonic order were the only ones who truly took part in them...

~BioHazard

There are so many things wrong with this statement I don't even know where to begin.

Crusaders did attack Damietta (in Egypt) several times which isn't a settlement on the campaign map - Cairo is propably the closest target.

Also I wouldn't call the Baltic Crusades minor as they happend between 1193 to 1410 (battle of Tannenburg) or even later if you want to argue the subject. In addition, the Teutonic Order was not alone in its crusade in the north. English, German, French, Prussian, Swedes, Danes (and many more) took part in these Crusades, with the Livonian sword brothers and native troops.

[Guinnessmonkey]

Seems to me that while priests and such should follow a crusade, conversion is too fast in this game as it is. After all, it's not like the Crusades led to the entire population of the region converting to Christianity (which is what happens in game after only a matter of years), only to all convert back to Islam once the crusaders are pushed back out again...

If anything I'd like Christian to Muslim (and vice-versa) conversion to be slower, not faster... But maybe that's just me...

[Firebat11]

I agree, that it was rare for people to convert so easily. Especially in an area like the Levant where you have Catholic Chrisitans, Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

I just wish that when a crusade is called that the Crusading armies attack the faction, not the settlement.

Example: Once King Richard took Acre (3rd Crusade), you think he went home after that? NO...he attacked kept going eventually engaging Saladin near Jaffa, on his way to Jerusalem.

I wish Crusading armies stayed on Crusade after the target settlement falls, and continue the campaign.

[MORBIDYAM]

I agree, that it was rare for people to convert so easily. Especially in an area like the Levant where you have Catholic Chrisitans, Orthodox Christians, Jews, and Muslims.

I just wish that when a crusade is called that the Crusading armies attack the faction, not the settlement.

Example: Once King Richard took Acre (3rd Crusade), you think he went home after that? NO...he attacked kept going eventually engaging Saladin near Jaffa, on his way to Jerusalem.

I wish Crusading armies stayed on Crusade after the target settlement falls, and continue the campaign.

Well I agree with you completely, though I figured it would be impossible for anyone to make a script that would keep the campaign going after the crusades. If anything I would like a script that simply directs crusading armies to cities around the cities and doesn't penalize them for taking them.

Though I figured if this was possible to implement someone would have already done it, so I went with the pilgrimage idea, if someone can orchestrate crusades to attack all the lands of the faction on which the crusade is declared then by all means go ahead, it would be awesome!

[Darviathar]

Well thought Darviathar! A solution for this would to stop the Pope from calling cruasades against random places, or excommonicated factions.

This would also help a lot in many ways, especially when the pope calles cruasades on Rebel Baghdad, or Cairo, or Vilnius the first 15 turns of the game, they should instead focus much more on Jerusalem. This would also make this a lot more realistic as who has ever heard of a true Holy Cruasade agaisnt Cairo or Baghdad or Vilnius. There were some "minor" cruasades agaisnt Lithunia, but the Teutonic order were the only ones who truly took part in them...

~BioHazard

I'd like to see an end to crusades against excommunicated factions as well. After the initial ones against Egypt, and possibly one to take Jerusalem back after the KOJ loses it, the only crusades you see are against France or HRE. It may not be historical, as the crusading fervor of 1300 was far less than what it was in 1100, but I'd rather see constant crusades against Jerusalem and Antioch until those cities are back in Christian control. Crusades should be against pagans or Islam, not against catholic factions that simply ignore the order to cease fire when they have an enemy city besieged.

[Darviathar]

Seems to me that while priests and such should follow a crusade, conversion is too fast in this game as it is. After all, it's not like the Crusades led to the entire population of the region converting to Christianity (which is what happens in game after only a matter of years), only to all convert back to Islam once the crusaders are pushed back out again...

If anything I'd like Christian to Muslim (and vice-versa) conversion to be slower, not faster... But maybe that's just me...

I couldn't agree more. The conversion is way too fast in this game. I literally imagine the population of provinces with their "head on a swivel" looking from priest, to iman, to orthodox bishop. I can imagine few things more difficult than persuading someone to change faiths in those days. The problem we seem to have is the lack of a population % rating for the city. I believe in RTW you could inspect the city and see which % of its population was that of the original faction as opposed to what % was from your faction. The longer you held the city, the higher your own rating got, and the easier it was to control the population. The closest thing I've seen to this in MTW 2 is in the Britannia mod, with the culture rating. I've often wondered if that could be assimilated to our "grand campaign" and make it more difficult to blitzkrieg an opponent by forcing larger garrisons and slowing down the advance. This would be particularly important in the middle east. Jerusalem itself may have been fairly cosmopolitan, but taking Alexandria or Cairo and holding it without much difficult simply isn't very realistic.