0.7 Unit balancing feedback

[Lusted]

Please post any feedback on unit balancing here. Please note that the correct charge values for units are not in yet.

[MiiKLL]

Hello, I'm playing as Rome m/m 478winter AUC. It seems a little weird to have my Hastati have a higher melee and missile attack than my Princeps, due to barracks and blacksmith upgrades. I realize that my Princeps have better defence, morale and disipline, so it seems to not be a issue in the battles i have fought.

Here is what my Hastati and Princeps, drafted from Roma, melee and missle attacks are:

Hastati...9 melee 12 missile

Princeps...8 melee 11 missile

Oh, thank you again for coming back to work on this mod. I know you are very busy now.

[Lusted]

This is with weapon upgrades I'm guessing?

[MiiKLL]

Hello, yes that is with the weapons upgrades that the " smiths_workshop " gives and the experience bonus the " city_barracks " gives Hastati in Roma.

[miki]

Hi gents,

(I'm playing Rome m/m with Gold, a few turns only)

Same for me. I think that Princeps must have the same exp (barracks) bonus than Hastati. In any case, not less because they were more experienced and better equipped warriors (it's in the unit stats indeed), but those exp bonuses are weird at times. Perhaps Hastati would have more men per unit (perhaps 200 men in huge settings?).

I have browsed the EDU file and the changed unit statitistics almost match what I have been modding for my copy of TE. So I must say I like it at first (not surprisingly).

[Nicholas H.C]

I think the roman infantry units (Imperial first cohort, hastati, etc.) are a little bit too weak. They were easily routed and crushed in all my custom battles

[miki]

I have seen more units routing sooner than in 5.1, where most troops fought to the last man. Flank and rear charges seems to have more effect on morale troops htan before, too.

A thing that I'm liking a lot is that experience seems to count more than before, as certain troops (specially hastati on the roman side) can fight longer when have exp chevrons than when not (in 5.1 I didn't noticed the difference was so great between new recruits and veterans).

Sorry for my bad english. I have read the last sentence and I doubt it makes sense.

[Lusted]

Yes morale was reduced from 5.1 as part of the rebalancing. and Roman units have stats reflecting their status, so if they are a bit weaker now, it means they were overpowered before.

[MiiKLL]

Hello, quick question on the pilum. Isn't the pilum supposed to have the " ap " attribute? When reading the unit descriptions it doesn't show the " effective against armour " statement. Yet when I goto the "export_descr_unit" file and look at units that have the pilum I see this for their " stat_pri_attr". (see below)

type te roman princeps
dictionary roman_principes ; Principes
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier roman_principes, 40, 0, 1.3
officer roman_early_centurion
officer roman_early_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.75
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown ap
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.75
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 3, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0

It's also like that in the original "export_descr_unit" file.

Shouldn't it actually read like this, (see below),for the " ap " attribute to be recognized?

type te roman princeps
dictionary roman_principes ; Principes
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy_1
soldier roman_principes, 40, 0, 1.3
officer roman_early_centurion
officer roman_early_standard
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, can_sap
formation 1, 2, 2, 3, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 10, 2, pilum, 35, 2, thrown, blade, piercing, spear, 25 ,0.75
stat_pri_attr prec, thrown, ap
stat_sec 7, 2, no, 0, 0, melee, simple, piercing, sword, 25 ,0.75
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 3, 5, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 1, flesh
stat_heat 4
stat_ground 2, 0, 0, 0
stat_mental 10, disciplined, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 30
stat_fire_delay 0

I'm getting ready to start a new Roman Campaign on H/M. My Roman Campaign on M/M the battles were very nice but I think I would like the more aggressive AI on the campaign map on the Hard setting.

[Lusted]

Yes it probably should, good catch there.

[florin80]

You mean it was a mistake by CA on this? As said above, in vanilla there is no comma between thrown and ap.

[Candelarius]

I noticed that numidia/eastern/immitation legionaries are recruitable for non-Romans prior to the Roman reforms. Perhaps you should add "and marian_reforms" to them in EDB?

[Bobolini]

Are the Bull warriors fixed? Iberia is just way too strong in 5.1

[Lusted]

I noticed that numidia/eastern/immitation legionaries are recruitable for non-Romans prior to the Roman reforms. Perhaps you should add "and marian_reforms" to them in EDB?

Well they're not imitation legionaires anymore(well Numidias still will be until I get round to changing them), so there's no need for them to be limited by the Marian reforms. I've changed them to be more like several units in EB which apparently were labelled as 'imitation' legions by the Romans because they fought in a similar style.

Are the Bull warriors fixed? Iberia is just way too strong in 5.1

Yes.

[Deathbypepsi]

Im playing through a germanic campaign (an odd choice perhaps but it was that or macedon) and i think axemen are underpowered, against the rebels in the region at least. They're theoretically the best troops i have but with the experience bonus given by the muster halls etc. My spear warbands are actually better man for man (let alone having more troops). Im not sure if, when i come up against rome, their armour bonus will be more useful but as it stands they're just not worth it.
Also, spear warbands are too good against other warbands, a four chevron warband vs 1 chevron spearmen and I won. on further thoughts, maybe its just the spears who are too good...

[miki]

Playing as Gaul I have noticed that Warbands have now more punch than before. Their charge is very effective and they kill faster. Their morale is a bit fragile, but its ok for me. Swordman are temible killers now, and have good defense and morale too. Gaul can deal with early Rome troops easier now.

OTOH, I have seen a celtic charge (early campaign, against a force made of many warbands and some swordmen charging uphill) stopped cold by a massive pila voley or two(double row of troops, made of Hastati and Princeps, fire at will). Nice charge, nice run, nice killing.

I like the way morale is working now, but I'm afraid battles will be fought too much fast, as in vanilla?

[Candelarius]

I don't think the battles are as fast as vanilla, but, they are a bit faster. I'm happy with this, personally, as I thought they were too slow in 5.1.

[miki]

Yeah, in 5.1 most units fought to the last man (or something like that). Now a flank or rear charge makes wonders. Also, if you let the AI the time needed to build good units (and early -militias- units with upgrades), the fights will last longer.

I have noticed great differences in battle performance between a green warband and an upgraded warband with 3 experience chevrons and some armour/weapons... differences almost not noticiable in 5.1.

[xan0therxnumberx]

this isnt really unit balancing, sorry, i didnt know where else to put it, its just about.. units, well anyways, i was wondering y u didnt give the macedonian and thracian phalanxes their Phrygian helmets which.. in my opinion look a lot better for one.. and was.. i beleive the standard helmet that would have been worn during this period, so yeah just had to say sumthing cause i was slightly dissapointed due to the greek factions being my favorite, and also, i think this is just sum wierd isolated file corruption that happened to just me or sumthing but the textures on the spartan bronze hoplites or whatever got reversed sumhow and the red and black crest is now the color of the helmet while the crest is gold colored ha, but yeah thanks alot lusted your work is excellent as ussual and your mods have always been my favorites

[Angel]

prec, thrown ap, same thing as prec, thrown,ap
Ive tested this a lot to see any difference and there wasnt.