Suggestion for Elves

[Varjon]

At The battle of five armies there were quite a few wood elves with spears, bows, and some swords. Like close to 2-3 thousand elves and two thousand men. Then 500 dwarves are added in. Elves on one mountain spur, men on the other and dwarves in the middle.

The grand total was about 5,000 against like ten thousand goblins and many hundreds on wolves. As well as a core bodyguard of Uruk type Orcs around Azog.

Now the goblins that assaulted the elvish host were thrown back a couple of times but then in the afternoon I believe the elves were hard pressed, even though they had the high ground and the attackers had to fight upslope

So the goblins fighting the elves probably outnumbered them approx 2-1 and yet, according to the story pressed the elves hard, even coming up and over and around the ridge, starting to flank them , until the eagles appeared, then end game.

I'm just making a point from the LOTR storyline about who can beat who. The wood elves who were pretty good shots with bows were't exactly mowing them down, like then opening scene in the Fellowship.

In fact, lucky Beorn showed up. The men too, were pressed hard and yieding 2500 men against 4,000 goblins and wolves.


So even though, they're elves and had about 6,000 years to practice with bows and spears, they're getting chewed up by the evil twisted runts. Just throwing it out there.

Are those numbers sure? Sounds pretty big that Thranduil would have send 2-3 thousand elves, when his own people weren't much bigger than that. :hmmm:

[King Ardumanish]

i think in this case your numbers aren't correct, varjon..... in the hobbit it was said that the army of thranduils was quite big..... and i think therefore 2-3 thousands sounds like a possible number (in tolkiens spheres)

[Farnan]

Quite big for Tolkien means a few hundred. The muster of the Rohirrim, which was massive for Tolkien, was only 7,000.

[Varjon]

Quite big for Tolkien means a few hundred. The muster of the Rohirrim, which was massive for Tolkien, was only 7,000.

Yup, I'm not sure could that King Ardumanish's number be possible even with united army of Lorien and Thranduil. I don't believe that even that human number is correct. Not very much men in Dale after Smaug's arrival. Only one that is sure is those 500 dwarves of Iron Mountains. :hmmm:

[Farnan]

Looking more into it, these Elf Lords should be the most powerful figures in the game, but still killable. The evil armies facing these should pause and make killing them a major goal.

Gandalf on the Elf Lords:

In Rivendell there live still some of his chief foes: the Elven-wise, lords of the Eldar from beyond the furthest seas. They do not fear the Ringwraiths, for those who have dwelt in the Blessed Realm live at once in both worlds, and against both the Seen and the Unseen they have great power.

[Glorfindel]

^^i have this in my signature

they're elves and had about 6,000 years to practice with bows and spears

what? no no, rarely....Elrond is over 4700 years old....not 6000... and he is Noldor....so...

[Antiochos VII Sidetes]

AAH! I am so out of my depth here!

[FXR]

Yeah .... 4700 years is a lot younger than a rough approximation of 6000. Heck, most elves typically hardly learn anything during the first 4500 years or so. Late bloomers, I guess.

The Rough figure of 6000 was just a swag. The point being that immortal very athletic cats would have plenty of time to get good at a craft or a skill. Great eyesight, good senses, great endurance. Reflexes perfect. Lots of time. No TV.

I picture the wood elves pretty much like that.

As to my recall of the force numbers at the battle of five armies. I researched a little bit. Here is another better "swag" at the numbers aside from my faulty memory

1000 elves
250 men of laketown plus men from the villages
500 dwarves

Over 10,000 goblins
250-400 Uruk type orcs (bodyguard of Bolg)
3,000 wolves
500 -(1000? not buying it) wolf riders
And other beasts and things

I like the elves. I like the way Tolkien framed them. He crafted them how men could have been had they not fallen from grace. Kinda cool

Anyway, in re-reading the battle and a little wikapedia, the elves were on one spur of the Lonely mountain, the men and dwarves the other. And when the goblin army charged towards the entrance to Lonely mountain, (lured in by retreating me from Lake town) they were hemmed in, and then the elves charged down off their spur, while the men and dwarves charged from the other. And their charge with the glittering spears and all, initially nearly routed the goblin force.
Even the wolves turned upon the fleeing goblins for a moment. But ... unfortunately some strength of goblins had climbed up and over the spur and attacked the elves from behind.
And so on ....

But it reminded the odds were more heroic, and the elvish skills, in the book, matched closer to what it seems we consider elvish expectations. Sorry for the confusion.

Yet now I'm glad I re-read the parts of the battle.

[Glorfindel]

yes elves are immortal, so are orcs IF they are tortured elves, i say "if" because Tolkien has several times question this theory which is his, obviously, but later he started not to like it, but this mod follows the movie so orcs, i believe, will be treated as tortured elves

so orcs have the same amount of time to practice the art of war as elves

[Varjon]

I believe that orcs were tortured and ruined elves, because I don't believa that Morgoth would have so great power to create immortal creature like orc by himself . And I still 1000 elves of FXR are still too much.

[Glorfindel]

tolkien stated that they might be humanoid animals/beasts enhanced by morgoth

[King Ardumanish]

and morgoth is called to be the most powerful Valar in Ea

and i found several sources.... eg this one:

The three commanders agreed that the Orcs were the enemies of all and previous grievances between them were put on hold in face of the greater threat. They arranged their forces on the two spurs of the Mountain that lined the valley leading to the now-sealed off great Gate of Erebor; the only entrance to the Mountain. The 500 Dwarves and 200 or so Lake-men formed up on one spur and over 1000 Elves on the other, while a light rear-guard lined across the mouth of the valley to lure the Orcs between the two, and thus destroy them. Bilbo Baggins tried to sit out the battle on the spur held by the Elves.

--> Over 1,000 Elf spearmen and archers, spec. 200 or so Lake-Men, over 500 grim, veteran Dwarves from the Iron Hills, many Eagles possibly over 100, Thorin's 12 Dwarf companions, and Beorn + Gandalf


another source: (hobbit and appendix A of The Lord of the Rings)
A vanguard of wolf-riders entered the ruined town of Dale in the valley and swiftly overcame the small force of Men positioned there. The Orcs and Wargs then poured into the valley. The Elves attacked first with a volley of arrows, and 1,000 of their spearmen charged into the valley below. The Orcs fell back, but were immediately attacked from the other side by Dwarves and Men.

[Code_Knight]

I think that we shouldn't cut down in number, but just raise the cost of recruitment.

[Varjon]

@ Glorfindel

Maybe, but only Iluvatar was able to give life to any creature and especially if we are speaking about something immortal race like orcs :hmmm:. And I think Tolkien thought that dragons are more like machines than living things, they in my knowledge only creatures Morgoth created totally by himself. Correct me if I'm wrong.

[Varjon]

@ Code_Knight

I agree, it's kinda boring if you have 20 elves in one unit with normal unit scale settings.

[Lü Bu]

yes i think there should be et least 50-60.
cavalry units should have 20 mans

[Farnan]

@ Glorfindel

Maybe, but only Iluvatar was able to give life to any creature and especially if we are speaking about something immortal race like orcs :hmmm:. And I think Tolkien thought that dragons are more like machines than living things, they in my knowledge only creatures Morgoth created totally by himself. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Not true, the Dwarfs were created by one of the Valinar.

[Varjon]

@ Farnan

Well, Aulë created bodies of dwarves but they were just bodies without life. Iluvatar was the one who gave them life.

[Lü Bu]

yes without Iluvatar they would be dead bodies

[Varjon]

@ karlost123456789

Insagly . Btw, Iluvatar was quite pissed when he/she heard that Aulë had made dwarves without telling him/her.