Suggestion for Elves

[Glorfindel]

no.... i disagree for the creation of Dwarves
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Tokien never said anything about "warm ground" or something


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[Varjon]

But I have more ment this Iluvatar gave them life thing that when Aulë had created them Iluvatar told him to put them sleep deep inside the mountains in Middle-Earth, and some times after awakening of elves Iluvatar woke up dwarves also and "gave them life".

[Glorfindel]

i t really doesn't matter after all.... Dwarves are Dwarves...


i think that that if something worths being discussed is about how Orcs bred, the fact is that in Silmarillion is stated that they "bred like the children of iluvatar and they multiplied like flys"-that means that elf women existed? because if Elven Males turned into Orcs... how about Elven Females?

[Varjon]

Or maybe orcs are like worms, they have both gensers. Haven't yet seen a feminim orc . Heh, orc with pink top and blue micro shorts.

[Gampie]

AULË CREATED THEM AND ILUVATAR GAVE THEM LIFE AND SPIRIT!

Sort of. Aulë created them, made them live but they were essentially slaves to his will. It is Ilúvatar who gave the dwarves an independent will.


It is told that in their beginning the Dwarves were made by Aulë in the darkness of Middle-earth; for so greatly did Aulë desire the coming of the Children, to have learners to whom he could teach his lore and his crafts, that he was unwilling to await the fulfilment of the designs of Ilúvatar. And Aulë made the Dwarves even as they still are, because the forms of the Children who were to come were unclear to his mind, and because the power of Melkor was yet over the Earth; and he wished therefore that they should be strong and unyielding. But fearing that the other Valar might blame his work, he wrought in secret: and he made first the Seven Fathers of the Dwarves in a hall under the mountains in Middle-earth.

Now Ilúvatar knew what was done, and in the very hour that Aulë's work was complete, and he was pleased, and began to instruct the Dwarves in the speech that he had devised for them, Ilúvatar spoke to him; and Aulë heard his voice and was silent. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to him: 'Why hast thou done this? Why dost thou attempt a thing which thou knowest is beyond thy power and thy authority? For thou hast from me as a gift thy own bring only, and no more; and therefore the creatures of thy hand and mind can live only by that being, moving when thou thinkest to move them, and if thy thought be elsewhere, standing idle. Is that thy desire?'
Then Aulë answered: 'I did not desire such lordship. I desired things other than I am, to love and to teach them, so that they too might perceive the beauty of Eä, which thou hast caused to be. For it seemed to me that there is great room in Arda for many things that might rejoice in it, yet it is for the most part empty still, and dumb. And in my impatience I have fallen into folly. Yet the making of thing is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father. But what shall I do now, so that thou be not angry with me for ever? As a child to his father, I offer to thee these things, the work of the hands which thou hast made. Do with them what thou wilt. But should I not rather destroy the work of my presumption?'

Then Aulë took up a great hammer to smite the Dwarves; and he wept. But Ilúvatar had compassion upon Aulë and his desire, because of his humility; and the Dwarves shrank from the hammer and wore afraid, and they bowed down their heads and begged for mercy. And the voice of Ilúvatar said to Aulë: 'Thy offer I accepted even as it was made. Dost thou not see that these things have now a life of their own, and speak with their own voices? Else they would not have flinched from thy blow, nor from any command of thy will.' Then Aulë cast down his hammer and was glad, and he gave thanks to Ilúvatar, saying: 'May Eru bless my work and amend it!'


Regarding the dragons, if I find the time for it I'll answer to your posts.

[FXR]

In interviews and essays of Tolkien said, (this is in mid-late 60's after he had written LOTR ... that orcs were created as with every aspect of created life. They possessed intellect, free will, and the capacity for procreation.

…. The Silmarillion says that "the Orcs had
life and multiplied after the manner of the Children of Iluvatar" …

…. countless became the hosts of Morgoth’s beasts and demons; and he brought into being the race of the Orcs, and they grew and multiplied in the bowels of the earth ….

…. One of those named Notes on motives in the Silmarillion contains a significant change of the statement about the breeding of the Orcs
Though as for Orcs, the Eldar believed Morgoth had actually 'bred' them by capturing (Men and Elves) early and increasing to the utmost any corrupt tendencies they possessed.

…. Though it is mentioned that especially in the elder days some spirits had assumed "Orkish shapes", that Sauron in the Third Age "interbred" Orcs and Men producing both Men-orcs large and cunning, and Orc-men treacherous and vile. In this essay an "elvish origin of Orcs" is totally omitted, but the problem of the timing of the awakening of the Secondborn still remains noticeable. Christopher comments this essay as follows:

And the last thought of Tolkien was ……………

This then, as it may appear, was my father's final view of the question: Orcs were bred from Men, and if 'the conception in mind of the Orcs may go far back into the night of Melkor's thought' it was Sauron who, during the ages of Melkor's captivity in Aman, brought into being the black armies that were available to his Master when he returned.


So Yes, there are girl goblins.

Also Tolkien felt that Melkor and Sauron became skilled at corrupting any form of life. That the original orcs were from elvish stock but later from men as needed. Also a few of the original goblins and orcs accordingly in the book were LONG LIVED. Snaga in Return of the King talks about the Great Siege (last alliance) as if he was there. So I beg pardon on the long lived part.

[Varjon]

Good, I think we have finished this subject, too.

[Code_Knight]

I won't close this thread until people either spam in it or they run out of things to say.

[Lü Bu]

maybe right now they dont have something to say but by the time ideas will come

[Varjon]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I didn't ment that thread should be closed, I ment that we have finished this subject about creation of dwarves.

[Lü Bu]

so,it stays open