Usefulness of player formation?

[AqD]

Hi all!

I'm wondering if any of you guys really use the various player formations other than the single line and maniple? It seems to me that complex formations like the "Alexander The Great Phalanx Formation" are just useless because only a fool would put units like skirmishers and phalanx units under same group - unless you call AI to control it
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Web shows

[Mikail Mengsk]

I always use my own formations, adapting them to the available troops at the moment.

Usually:

- first line: 2 missile troops


- second line, left flank, slightly advanced: 2 spear infantries

- second line, centre, slightly backward: 2 phalanx infantries

- second line, right flank, slightly advanced: 2 spear infantries


- third line, left wing: 2 sword infantries

- third line, centre: general's unit

- third line, right wing: 2 sword infantries


- fourth line, left wing: 2 cavalries

- fourth line, right wing: 2 cavalries


- fifth line, left or right flank: 2 cavalries

- fifth line, centre: elephants



T = missile troops
O = spear infantries
X = phalanxes
W = sword infantries
A = cavalries
G = general
E = elephants

--------TT
-----OOXXOO
--WW---G---WW
--AA----------AA
---------E----AA


Like this:

[AqD]

I see, so you don't use the hard-code formations either.

I'm replacing them with more useful ones:

1.Single line
2.Single column
3.Double line
4.Double column
5.Wide single line (gaps between units)
6.Wedge formation
7.Triple column
8.Manipular formation

They're for small groups of units rather than entire army, and unit types are ignored, so you can use a manipular formation of velites or anything you like. The 3 column formations can be very useful in street/bridge battles (they're tightly-packed, unlike in vanilla RTW).

Any others I should add/replace?
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Vapor Genie Health

[Quinn Inuit]

Have you tried Marcus Camillus's player formations? Those ship by default with the ExRM and they're quite good.

[AqD]

I just downloaded it and studied. But it has the same problem I mentioned in the original post: they're formations for the entire army, rather than for small tactical groups (ex: velites in the first line).

I always wonder if people actually use these "army formations" during battle? If they do, how do they control the skirmish mode or fire-at-will of some of the units? Or make commands such as calling the first line to retreat, or the 2 leftmost units to advance?? :hmmm:
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AVANDIA LAW

[mcantu]

I just downloaded it and studied. But it has the same problem I mentioned in the original post: they're formations for the entire army, rather than for small tactical groups (ex: velites in the first line).

I always wonder if people actually use these "army formations" during battle? If they do, how do they control the skirmish mode or fire-at-will of some of the units? Or make commands such as calling the first line to retreat, or the 2 leftmost units to advance?? :hmmm:

I use these formations and the EB versions as well. After I get them in formation I enable guard mode for all the units, amke sure fire-at-will is turned on for all units and turn off skirmish mode. This works wonderfully for me...

[Mikail Mengsk]

.....how do they control the skirmish mode or fire-at-will of some of the units? Or make commands such as calling the first line to retreat, or the 2 leftmost units to advance?? :hmmm:

The skirmish mode is usually on, except with some kind of units that could hold a melee for a while: for example, i use the Italian Skirmishers as light infantry, disabling the skirmish mode. But for Balearic Slingers, Cretan Archers and similar i always enable the skirmish: i don't want to lose too many of them because of distraction!

Fire at will always on, except for infantry units like italian swordsmen and iberian troops: their volleys are good, but i prefere to quicly engage the enemy.

I very seldom order an infantry unit to retreat: they are too slow and will suffer too many casualties. I do it only in particular situations. Vice versa, i always retreat my cavalries from the melee, just after the charge.

[Korlon]

I never use the game-provided formations. I generally go for a Hannibal-at-Cannae inspired crescent formation, though with some changes. It makes it hard for the enemy to flank me and I can always go for a Cannae route of a double-envelopment.

There's still one formation I haven't tried. It looks like a seagull at flight.

[AqD]

I use these formations and the EB versions as well. After I get them in formation I enable guard mode for all the units, amke sure fire-at-will is turned on for all units and turn off skirmish mode. This works wonderfully for me...

But how do you control the individual lines or columns after that?? For example, you may want your skirmishers or cavalry to move to the enemy's rear once the army is engaged, but with the formation (as one single group of all units) you can't do that easily....

Also, in my experience a static pre-battle formation never works, because AI knows exactly how to deal with it: for instance, AI would not send units into the gaps in your formation (which makes a maniple useless), instead it'd keep the first line/lines inact by minimal units, and put the other units in reserve or try to flank you - and make your flank-protection useless, unless you micro-manage them. In the end, the only thing that matters is the actions you take during the battle, not before. And that's why I always organize my army into 3-5 groups, each of them in a single-line, so I can micro-manage them easily.

Am I playing RTR battle in some very different way than other players? (I'm using RTW-Alex, BTW)
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The Cliff Condos

[Artax]

I used to use only the maniple formation when playing as romans. And only as a pre battle formation. I changed it during the battle according to terrain and enemy.

I usually put my units into groups. For exaple: 1st - heavy infantry in the center, 2nd - left wing infantry, 3rd - right wing infantry, 4th - missile units, 5th and 6th - cavalry wings. For me it's the best way to micromanage them, as units are usuallly of the same type and have same special abilities.

[Tony83]

I tend to "brigade" my infantry: two heavy units in the front line, supported by a missile unit in the second, so I sometimes use the single-line option to align the heavy infantry. I don't think I've ever used the others, except in curiosity, to see what they do.

[Tiberius Nero]

I just deploy manually everything before battle and group units as I see fit for the battle.

[Kinshejsi]

Nah I used to use those premade formations (most of the time the: Missile troops first three line formation but I think that dissapeared in RTR)
Now in my bactrian campaign I use:
First line: Cheap mobile spear infantry
Second line: Javilin throwers
Third line: All my phalanx units (and that are many)
Fourth line: My expensive mobile spear units (like hypastistai) and mobile sword units.
Fifth line: Archers
Sixth line: General and some strong cavalry
On the sides I put my elephants, archer cavalry and if I have much normal cavalry, also some normal cavalry.

So u get something like this:
---MS-MS-MS-MS---
------JT-JT-JT------
AC-EL P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P-P C-C
-----MS-MS-MS-----
------A-A-A-A------
-------G-C-C--------

Once the enemy reaches my first line I let my phalanxmen move forward. In the beginning I concentrate everything on the front. I let my elite units wait until the line gets broken or my general is in dangers. When most of the enemy units are in battle, I move my cavalry and elephants on their flank, I try to take out their general first. Then I most of the time win the battle .

[Mikail Mengsk]

But how do you control the individual lines or columns after that?? For example, you may want your skirmishers or cavalry to move to the enemy's rear once the army is engaged, but with the formation (as one single group of all units) you can't do that easily....

Also, in my experience a static pre-battle formation never works, because AI knows exactly how to deal with it: for instance, AI would not send units into the gaps in your formation (which makes a maniple useless), instead it'd keep the first line/lines inact by minimal units, and put the other units in reserve or try to flank you - and make your flank-protection useless, unless you micro-manage them. In the end, the only thing that matters is the actions you take during the battle, not before. And that's why I always organize my army into 3-5 groups, each of them in a single-line, so I can micro-manage them easily.

Am I playing RTR battle in some very different way than other players? (I'm using RTW-Alex, BTW)

I use a pre-planned formation for the battle (the one i posted), but i divide my army in groups of 2-3 units each. So i can micromanage them easily. Sometimes i change groups' units during the battle, it depends on what's happening during it.

[HMonk]

I keep them them in three lines with cav in the rear.

[enkovich]

But how do you control the individual lines or columns after that?? For example, you may want your skirmishers or cavalry to move to the enemy's rear once the army is engaged, but with the formation (as one single group of all units) you can't do that easily....

Try using waypoints, I found that solved the problem for me, and you can generally plan out a path that won't have your units running through the enemy.

e.g. When playing as the Iberians, I engage with my devotio to hold the enemy line, I then plan waypoints for my scutarii falcata and caetrati falcata that takes them around the enemy line while maintaining a 2x2 box and places them in a single line behind the enemy (after taking out their cavalry and skirmishers of course).

[AqD]

Yes, but then you'd need to use small unit groups - not large one like the default formations assume.
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WELLBUTRIN LAWSUITS

[enkovich]

not at all, I use it for large formations as well, usually a phalanx line. With large formations you have to set more waypoints to avoid the issue of walking through an enemy formation, but I've had no problem moving a single line of 6+ units around the enemy while maintaining (sort of) a straight line.

[Tiberius Tosi]

--H---H---H
P-V-P-V-P-V-P
--T-V-T-V-T

EEE--------GG

That's my standard formation that I always set up by myself at the beginning of the battle.

H-Hastatii
P-Principes
T-Triarii
V-Velites (back two are sometimes replaced with funditores when fighting barbarians because of their weak to no armor, usually replaced with local missile units if beneficial)
E-Equites (Many times replaced with locally recruited cavalry)
G-General (I use my main good command one, and then a terrible one that I would usually kill anyways)

Ocasionally I try the crazy Roman shark tooth looking formation (and I found it actually works fairly well against barbarian factions) and other formations but this "maniple-like" formation is usually my standard

Usually the only reason I devote my triarii is moving them to the back flanks of the principes to protect from cavalry. I turn fire at will on for all units so the enemy is swarmed with a hail of missiles before they charge me. Usually I engage my principes fairly quickly because Hastatii lose men relatively fast. My main flanking move is usually done by the generals on the right flank, because they are the strongest and because regular cavalry loses men very fast if not engaged right (still have not mastered cavalry all that well). Oh and I NEVER let my missile troops engage unless I am 100 percent certain I am going to lose. Anyways, that's how I usually fight with Rome.

[Pat89]

You kill your own generals???