BoA3 - New factions in BoA 3 (Obsolete)

[Nelduin]

Hello !
The BoA team would be happy to know what new japanese clan you would like to see in BoA 3.
So, regarding the gameplay, what faction is missed actually in the mod ?

[mochi]

Hello Yasin,
Tokugawa Clan is surely one of most famous clan and begins his Shogunade,
But it is not historical to make Tokugawa independent faction,
if the scenario starts before 1560.
Becase Tokugawa Clan belongs to Imagawa Clan and has no own castle
till death of Yoshimoto Imagawa at Okehazama in 1560.
After Okehazama, Tokugawa Clan allied and was subject to Oda Clan
till death of Nobunaga Oda at Honnoji Temple in 1582.

So if the scenario starts after 1560,
Imagawa Clan should be deleted because he has no importance anymore,
and can make Tokugawa Clan an independent faction allied with Oda,
or should be treated as a part of Oda Clan faction.
After 1582, Tokugawa Clan is clearly established as independent faction.

I think Chosogabe Clan and Date Clan are useful to put vacant regions,
Honganji Temple that allied with Mori, Takeda and Uesugi historicaly,
can be an unique and storongest enemy against Oda Clan.

[Nelduin]

The problem is all the actual factions have their own specificity... for example, the Oda has a better moral than the other factions, the Takeda's riders are better, the Chinese more numerous etc...
If we add a new faction, it must have its own characteristics. We can add the Tokugawa Clan, but do you know in what they are unique regarding the other clans ?

[mochi]

Historicaly most of Clans used similar army
which includes both cavarly and infantly.
So many Sengoku games chracterise each faction
by not unit type but personarity like Three Kingdoms mod of RTW.

Most strong troop of Tokugawa Clan is Red battalion of Ii,
that is commanded by Naomasa Ii who is one of Tetravium of Tokugawa Clan
and included more cavalry than usual troop.
It was established after Red battalion of Yamagata of Takeda Clan.

For the game system, it is not recommendable
that both Imagawa and Tokugawa Clan become each faction
because no neutral region remains around Imagawa Clan.

If you needs speciality, Honganji Temple is most suitable.
Honganji Temple is not a Samurai lord but a religious constitution like Catholic,
historicaly storongst enemy of Oda Clan.
mobilised believer troops which were not well trained but with high moral,
also employed Saika Mercenaries who are well trained Masketters.
There is no faction in central Japan now and so Honganji will locate there.

[Nelduin]

Thanks, your post will be useful, but do you know if the Tokugawa's soldiers used more particularly one type of weapon ? I mean did the Tokugawa's samurais use often the no-dachi ? or the yari ? You understand, we must know in what type of weapon they are specialized...

[mochi]

As to moral of troops, It is cosidered
that Shimazu Clan is highest and Uesugi and Takeda are next to it.
Tokugawa and Chousogabe also considered strong.
Hojo, Mori and Oda are not high, but Oda Clan can employ mobile troops
by separation between Samurai and farmers.
Honganji Temple should employ cheap troops with high moral but not trained.
Special troops of each clan are

Shimazu Clan`s Rural Samurai of Satsuma
Poor lower class Samurai who lived in villages and cultivated but with extremely high moral
should be employed by cheap cost but only at Satsuma(Kagoshima)

Chousogabe Clan`s One Set of Armour
similar to Rural Samurai of Satsuma but poorer to have only one set of armour
not mounted and employed only at Tosa(Kochi)

Otomo Clan`s Nation Destroyer
Cannon given by Spainish because Otomo Yoshishige was christian
It was used in a battle against Shimazu Clan

Oda Clan`s Iron Ship
Wooden ship armoured by iron and with cannons made by Nobunaga Oda

Mori Clan`s Murakami Navy
Navy commanded by Murakami Clan who belongs to Mori Clan
It was largest pyrate navy and defeated Oda navy once
employed only at Bingo(Hiroshima) or Iyo(Matsuyama)

Date Clan's Mounted Masketters
masketters who fire on horses, established later period

Honganji Temple`s Saika Mercenary
well trained masketters who lived in republic-like villages
employed only at Kii(Wakayama)

[mochi]

Thanks, your post will be useful, but do you know if the Tokugawa's soldiers used more particularly one type of weapon ? I mean did the Tokugawa's samurais use often the no-dachi ? or the yari ? You understand, we must know in what type of weapon they are specialized...

If you think that added faction must have special weapons,
No more Samurai clan is suitable to add, also not Tokugawa Clan is.
In this term, I said Honganji is most suitable to add
because of his unique buildings and troops such as most trained masketters.

Not only Tokugawa Clan but most of clans,
soldiers mainly used both yumi archery in distant and yari(or no-dachi) in near.
Katana(or Tachi) was only used in last stage of battles
to injure mortally and cut down enemy`s head.
In other words, Troops of clans are characterised not by weapons but by commanders or regions.

So I think it difficult to make difference between factions only by weapon type.
I think it better to use method like Three Kingdoms mod
which have original battle units for each famous character,
or some other mods which includes numbered legions or greek hoplitai of each city.

[high_templar]

hi mochi,

Thank you about all what you said, it'll be very useful for the v3. Indeed we want to add some new factions. New japanese clans are a serious possibility. As Al-Hassen said, to preserve the BoA interesting gameplay, factions must have a speciality in some troops because it gives to players the opportunity to play with each factions a unique gameplay with its own strategies. That's what it make BoA an interesting mod.
First, things we didn't used in japanese factions in v1 and v2 are :

Better basic troops.
More numerous basic troops.
Better gunpowder units.
Better cannons units.

There're probably severals other possibilities but i didn't have a deep look in BoA edu since 10 months.

As you can conclude regarding possibilities i quote, we can add 4 new japanese clans corresponding to those possibilities.
I just need to know which clans can correspond to those possibilities.

The second problem's if i add 4 new clans it'll need to create over 70 new units! To be honest, i'm alone to work on models and textures. I've already to rebuilt entirely all actual factions so it makes near 200 models and near 300 textures. As you can see it's a gigantic work !
And we must don't forget that japanese factions requires a lot of imagination to create unique samurai armors.
But !... But i'm ready to work hard on it !

So if you can tell us which clans seems to be good for those possibilities, it could be great.

Sincerely.

[Lord_Trask]

I played samurai wars mod for mtw/vi the gneral pricinciple of mod was recreation of shogun. In the beginning, and this is a MP mostly concept, They had all the original shogun factions, but all factions had identical unit lists. The mod was still very fun to play. So unique lookin units and samurai armor can make a faction fun to play even if it dont have standout unit. Alot of fun comes from the recreation of tactics used in the warfare for the place and period. Tokugawa and and a couple other important clans can be added to give overall feel, but need not have a special unt IMO, all the vanilla total war games i have played have had a generic faction so to speak, or just have access to special units from other factions.
An addition to the gunpowder selections woud be nice especially with ming dynasty, perhaps some dragon shaped rockets or cannons...

....historical units or heroes?

[mochi]

Hello Templer,

Better basic troops.
Considering about unit strength,
1st class Shimazu Uesugi Takeda
2nd class Tokugawa Chosogabe Date
3rd class Oda Mori Hojo Otomo
And Oda clan should have more movement points in campaign maps
because money are payed to them and so they didn`t have to work in rice fields.
Shimazu, Uesugi, Takeda and Oda are already included
and Tokugawa should be added instead of Imagawa if game starts after 1560,
so Chosogabe Clan seems to be suitable to add.
Another reason is that there is no faction in Shikoku island now,
Chosogebe also had strong navy and fight in Korean Peninsula later.

More numerous basic troops.
Honganji Temple used his farmland believers for battles,
they are not trained but with high moral because of belief.
So Honganji had much manpower than Samurai clans.
In game, Honganji should have cheaper units than other clans.
Oda clan had largest economic power because he had fertile regions,
but it should be reflected not by unit cost but by income of cities.
So Honganji Temple is recommendable at this point.

Better gunpowder units.
Japanese had known musket gun at 1543 and used it from 1550's.
Clans could buy musket at limited city where trades with Portugal were executed.
So Clans in westen Japan had more opportunity to get musket than easten.
Especialy Honganji Temple locateded in Osaka,
that is near to Sakai, largest trade port in the period.
Saika Mercenaries also had get musket at Sakai,
and established technology for self-production later.
They were employed by many clans but especialy by Honganji.
So Honganji Temple is recommendable at this point.

Better cannons units.
Japanese prefer musket or large musket to cannons.
So in different from Ming who had many cannons from Portugal,
Clans didin't use it till war against Ming and Korea.
Otomo Clan used cannons from Spain, but not so many cannons.
If Otomo Clan had unified Kyusyu island to defeat Shimazu Clan,
it is possible to think Otomo became christian ally of Spain.
In this case Otomo Clan would have more cannons from Spain.
So hictorialy, no clan was good at cannons,
but one choice is making Otomo Clan as such a faction.

[mochi]

Better basic troops.
For campaign game purpose, Date Clan is another choice.
Easten-North district of Japan was heavily separated in early period
and also Date Clan was not so large till 1570's.
But if there is no faction in Easten-North district,
It is too easy for Uesugi or Hojo Clan to conquer Easten-North district.
Easten-North district supplied best horses in Japan,
So Date Clan can be characterized by good cavalry.

As to unit models and skins,
I think it is possible to use same skin and unit card for several units.
for example, if unit of One Set of Armour is added for Chousogabe Clan ,
same model and skin as Nodachi units of other clans can be used.
It is needed to change only unit data of that.

In BoA2 each faction have about 15 unit types available,
I think it may be reduced to 10 or 12
and then their skins and models can be used for newly added units.
For example, clans didn't use monk soldiers
because conflicts of land-possession often broke out between clans and temples
So only Honganji Temple and Rebel should use it.
Another example, clans in westen Japan didn`t have good cavalry,
So Seiei Kihei units can be deleted from them.

[RollingWave]

New faction: Machurian tribebal alliance. (or the Neo Jin dynasty)

History background: These are the native clans inhibiting modern day Machuria, stretching from northeast of Beijing all the way to part of modern day Siberia. they are semi-nomadic people. often trading in furs and medicines that are frequent in these lands, like most hardened people of these area, they are also exellent horse riders and hunters. but also relatively more advanced techinically than their pure nomadic counterparts.

The main ethnic group were the Jurchen people. though they were basically now a mix of more than just that. with Khitans and some Koreans / Mongols / Han Chinese. too.

The Jurchen first came to prominence in the late 11th early 12th century, at this time the prominent power in the area was the Khitan empire of Liao. they (like the Mongols ) were nominal subjects to this massive empire. the Khitan was a major threat to the Chinese Song dynasty. and had many back and forth skrimishs through the years. but by the late 11th century their empire were begining to stagnate and decline, and their influence over the tribes at the edges of their empire faded. the Jurchens formed like own nation and rebelled against the Khitan, seeing the opportunity to rid themself of their biggest threat, the Song allied with the Jurchens and they launched a combined two way offensive on Liao. the Song army were defeated around Beijing, but they had drawn most of the Liao attention and forces that the Jurchens blazed through the north, and the Liao empired never recovered in time and was destroyed.

The Jurchen now proclaim themself the Jin empire, and they realize that the Song dynasty army was also badly damaged during the Liao's demise, and they took advantage and went south to seiged the Song Capital of Keifeng. the Song defeated the first offensive but got careless the second time around and the capital along with most of their standing army were destroyed in 1127, the Jin dynasty were finally halted around the Yantzi river. but their new empire was born, stretching over much of northern China and into Machuria. this empire would last until 1234 when some Genghis Khan dude showed up and killed everyone in the area

To be fair, the Jin fought valiantly against the Mongols. and their fall was largely in part due to their own internal fighting and the Mongols absorbing the renegades of their civil war. still it took nearly 2 decades of back and forth war in northern China and more Song back stabbing before they finally fell. (and they outlived Genghis Khan ) some of the survivers returning to their north eastern homeland. where they remained subjects to the Mongol eventrual Yuan dynasty.

after the Yuan was overthrown in China and the Mongols returning to their homeland, more internal fightign amoungest the Mongols again freed the Jurchen people . as the Ming dynasty moved on they became increasingly independent. and by the late 16th century they were once again starting to unite as one power, it was offically accomplished in 1616 when Nurhaci proclaimed himself emperor of the Later Jin dynasty.

at first, the new Jin were also a vassal to the Ming, and they soon became a major player in the area and relevant to all the events transpired during the time of BOA.

a. in the Imjin war, they actually got into a skrimish with the Japanese army near Ya Lu river. Nurhaci had offered the Ming dynasty their support and wanted to move into Korea, but the Ming declined.

b. they were continually fighting the Mongols. who wanted to regain control of the area. but eventually it was the Mongols who were abosorbed into the Machurian empire.

c. after the Imjin war. as frustration with the Ming mounts and events trasnpire (Nurhaci was actually a merchant before he started to reunite the Jurchens. and his father was killed by the Ming soliders in a commercial misunderstanding) and the Ming's fading power. the Jin finally broke their vassalship and attack the Ming.

They should be included, because by the end of time time period it was them that ended up being the biggest winner of all. their eventrual empire looked like this

and this was actually not at it's height, already losing significant land to the Russians.

As events transpired, the Ming was overran by rebels , and the general at the great wall weighed his options and decided to surrender to the Jin dynasty, along with the most elite troops of the Ming dynasty, all 300,000 of them. and with the combination of elite Ming army and their own horse archer war machine they bulldozed the rebels and remaining Ming loyalist in quick order. later on they conquered all of Tibet / Xin Jian / Mongolia, Korea and most of south east Asia was their vassal, and their power stretched into Siberia. they renamed themself the Qing, and they live ALL the way to 1911, as the final Chinese dynasty. you could debate they lived longer as the Japanese eventrually reinstated their last emperor as head of Machuria during the 1930s as their puppet kingdom, where they staged their eventrual war into China... and South east Asia... (you know.. WW2 thingy)

-------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will need to do more research to figure out what exactly the Jin had at this point, but it was for the most part a heavy horse archer army. where troop wore heavy brigandine armor like this

a ceremonial armor of the emperor perserved in Taiwan. the troops wore something similar but obviouly it's wouldn't be laced in gold

paintings (by western Jesusits in the Qing court) of the emperor in his armor.

As they took more of the Chinese lands they're army were starting to get a lot closer to the Ming, with more musket infantry and eventrually artillery.

[Nelduin]

Great... we will see if we add this faction. Please continue helping us ! (+Rep)

[metacooler]

I think that since this mod is called Battles of ASIA then i think you should add other asian countries such as India,Vietnam,Thailand,etc
sorry i dont know much about history or anything but this post was more of a suggestion.


Vietnamese warrior


Indian warriors

[Nelduin]

For the moment we think add the Vietnam and a full Korea. But we aren't sure to can add the Indians.

[metacooler]

that would be awesome! and im prett sure that the vietnamese soldiers wore those bamboo hats.

some info

Mongol invasions
During the Trần Dynasty, Đại Việt repelled three invasions (in 1257 AD, 1284 AD, and 1288 AD) by the Mongols under Kublai Khan, who had occupied China and founded the Yuan dynasty (see Mongol invasions of Vietnam). The key to Đại Việt's successes was to avoid the Mongols' strength in open field battles and city sieges (the Trần court abandoned the capital and the cities), then countered them decisively at their weak points, which were battles in swampy areas (such as Chương Dương, Hàm Tử, Vạn Kiếp) and on rivers (such as Vân Đồn and Bạch Đằng). The Mongols also suffered from tropical diseases and loss of supplies to Trần army's raids. The Yuan-Trần war reached its climax when retreating Yuan fleet was decimated at the Battle of Bach Dang (1288). The military architect behind Dai Viet's victories was Commander Trần Quốc Tuấn, more popularly known as Trần Hưng Đạo.




Period of Chinese domination (111 BC–938 AD)
In 111 BC, Chinese troops invaded Nanyue and established new territories, dividing Vietnam into Giao Chỉ (Chinese: 交趾 pinyin: Jiaozhi, now the Red river delta); Cửu Chân from modern-day Thanh Hoa to Ha Tinh; and Nhật Nam, from modern-day Quang Binh to Hue. While the Chinese were governors and top officials, the original Vietnamese nobles (Lạc Hầu, Lạc Tướng) still managed some highlands.

In 40 AD, a successful revolt against harsh rule by Han Governor Tô Định (蘇定 pinyin: Sū Dìng), led by the two noble women Trung Trac and her sister Trung Nhi, recaptured 65 states (include modern Guangxi), and Trung Trac became the Queen (Trưng Nữ Vương). In 42 AD, Emperor Guangwu of Han sent his famous general Mã Viện (Chinese: Ma Yuan) to quell the revolt. After a torturous campaign, Ma Yuan defeated the Trung Queen, who committed suicide. To this day, the Trung Sisters are revered in Vietnam as the national symbol of Vietnamese women. Learning a lesson from the Trung revolt, the Han and other successful Chinese dynasties took measures to eliminate the power of the Vietnamese nobles. The Vietnamese elites would be coerced to assimilate into Chinese culture and politics. However, in 225 AD, another woman, Trieu Thi Trinh, popularly known as Lady Trieu (Bà Triệu), led another revolt which lasted until 248 AD.

During the Tang dynasty, Vietnam was called Annam (Giao Châu), until early 10th century AD. Giao Chỉ (with its capital around modern Bac Ninh province) became a flourishing trading outpost receiving goods from the southern seas. "History of Later Han" (Hậu Hán Thư, Hou Hanshu) recorded that in 166 AD the first envoy from the Roman Empire to China arrived by this route, and merchants were soon to follow. The 3rd-century "Tales of Wei" (Ngụy Lục, Weilue) mentioned a "water route" (the Red River) from Jiaozhi into what is now southern Yunnan. From there, goods were taken overland to the rest of China via the regions of modern Kunming and Chengdu.

At the same time, in present-day central Vietnam, there was a successful revolt of Cham nations. Chinese dynasties called it Lin-Yi (Lin village). It later became a powerful kingdom, Champa, stretching from Quảng Bình to Phan Thiet (Bình Thuận).

In the period between the beginning of the Chinese Age of Fragmentation to the end of the Tang Dynasty, several revolts against Chinese rule took place, such as those of Lý Bôn and his general and heir Triệu Quang Phục; and those of Mai Thúc Loan and Phùng Hưng. All of them ultimately failed, yet most notable were Lý Bôn and Triệu Quang Phục, whose Anterior Lý Dynasty ruled for almost half a century (544 AD to 602 AD) before the Chinese Sui Dynasty reconquered their kingdom Vạn Xuân.

[Nelduin]

Can you post here some pictures (historical accurate) about Vietnam's soldiers during the XVIe century ?

[metacooler]

ill keep on looking but so far this is what i found..

Vietnamese warrior (pretty sure its accurate cause they found it in a tomb or something...


so im guessing the soldiers look alot like chinese infantry besides the helmet

ill keep on looking!

[Nelduin]

It's great, but I can't see anything on the picture you have posted... we see only the head. Maybe you have other pictures more detailled ?

[metacooler]

These are the best i can find.




here another one you cant see much so sorry...