BoA3 - Suggestions/Ideas/Answers for v3 (Obsolete)

[Nelduin]

Post here your suggestions or answers about the next future release, BoA v3...

Already asked : (Legend: won't be added - will be added - possibly added)
- New faction: Indians
- New faction: Tokugawa Clan
- Campaign
- A more historical/realistic Ming Army

[Leviathan DarklyCute]

I think that in addition to Japanese, you should also include Chinese, Mongols and other south-east asian factions.

[Nelduin]

In the previous versions there are already Chineses, Mongols and Koreans (Altan Khan Empire for Mongols and Ming Dynasty for Chineses. There are too some Koreans units in the Ming Dynasty), But we plan to add some other factions, maybe the Indians or a full Korean faction.

[Lord_Trask]

Indians?? I think you should stick with major japanese clans b 4 expanding west IMHO

[Nelduin]

You mean add more Japanese clans ?

[mochi]

If you add some factions,
Otomo Clan, one of Trivium of Kyusyu island and christianized lord,
Ryuzoji Clan, One of Trivium of Kyusyu island
Chosogabe Clan, that unified Shikoku island
Honganji Temple, have good masketters and most strong in central Japan
Miyoshi Clan, dominant faction in central Japan in earlier period
Asakura Clan, that resisted against Oda Clan in central Japan
Satake Clan, that resisted against Hojo Clan and Date Clan
Date Clan, dominant faction in eastern-north district in later period
Mogami Clan, that resisted against Date Clan

Other than Japanese clans, Ryukyu kingdom is independate in the period.
And Manturia tribe and Spain can be emergent faction historicaly.

[pirates_say_arrgg]

Minamoto Musashi

[Nelduin]

I think if we plan to add new japanese clans, we will add first the Tokugawa clan.

[Lord_Trask]

Definetly one of the more famous that is missed

[high_templar]

Hi all,

About some new factions, we perhaps plan to add a south-east asian faction like Thailand or Vietnam. Sorry but India isn't a possibility.
About a campaign, as always i don't have any abilities in campaign making because i only play RTW in custom battles and MP so i prefer to give its task to an expert.

As i said, for the v3, we'll add a lot of units like cannons for china and japanese clans and infantry for Mongols (we must precise that Mongols will be the same as Battles of Kingdoms ones).
All japanese clans will have near 21 units per clans and there will be several new clans.

Does anybody can find some historical sources to know precisely all chinese gunpowder weapons please ?

Sincerely.

[Lord_Trask]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huolongjing

maybe this help

[Nelduin]

It will help. Thank you.

[RollingWave]

I think i'll give you a more complete run down later but if your previews read correctly I think the Ming dynasty unit roster is just completely wrong.

The Ming Dynasty was far more gunpowder based. your army resemble something of a early / mid Song dynasty army . it should have a lot of anti personal artilery / arquebest and maybe even musket types by this time period. if we read some documents on the Korean comflicts during this time it was noted how out gunned the Japanese were in terms of artilery but they actually did better in infantry / cav fighting. their later tactics against the Mongolians were also gunpowder based. one of the famous stratagey was the moving fort.

the Moving fort was their tactic against horse archery. once their scouts spot the approach of enemy horse archers they're army would move all their wagons / artilleries to surrond themself in. thus giving them a lot of cover from arrows while still being able to shoot at them with their artilery / guns / bows / crossbows . it also makes it almost impossible for them to be charged as the wagons break up any possible organized charge.

The Cho Ko Nu were real but they were rarely implemented in mass. their fairly useless except in tight spots such as pass / gates / walls. their range / penetration is dramatically compremised for fireing speed. and often the bolts must be tipped in poison to compensate for the lack of punch. they're helpful for getting a lot of shots into the air quickly but the actual damage is limited against armored troops.

I'm also fairly sure there were no real cav groups that were armed with Guan Yu Daos. they'er simply way too heavy and unwiedly to be any good in real application. the Chinese cavs still fought like western onces. spear / lance (not the really big onces. but some cavs used longer spears for charging) / dao / mace type weapons. if it was a heavily horse based army they would usually also carry x-bows / bows. making them basically the complete unit.

[RollingWave]

Also, interesting enough, one of the primary hand to hand weapon used by Chinese infantries in the late Ming period was the Chang Dao / Miao Dao ... which is essentially a Chinese remake of the Japanese Nodachi. seen here



the reason was that one of the greatest innovater of the late Ming warfare was Qi Chi Guan, who first came to fame fighting off the threat of pirates on the southern coast. the origin of these pirates? defated Samurais that were exiled from Japan.

some quotes from the great websites that posted these

Ming Dynasty two-handed swords (probably early to mid-17th century) known then as the "changdao" but are more popularly known today as the "Miao Dao". These blades have ridged cross-sections and were obviously inspired by the large Japanese swords (known as "nodachi") used by the Japanese pirates raiding the Chinese south-eastern coast. As for the diagrams showing the swordsmen, they are from a Ming martial arts manual published in 1621.




These large 2-handed sabers were first used by the Northern Border Troops under the command of Ming General Qi Jiguang in the late 1560s-70s to deal with Mongol cavalry, and remained in use right up to the late Ming (1620s-1644). At that time, these sabers had an overall specified length of 1.95 meters. General Qi, who lived from 1528-1587, had written the influential training manual "Lian Bing Shi Ji" while he was the commanding and training officer for several northern units bordering Mongolia. Commanding about 100,000 men, some of the best troops of the Ming empire, he had successfully deterred Mongol aggression at the border for over 10 years. The structural components he had setup to deal with the formidable Mongol cavalry armies were to consist of 4 parts:

1) Combat Wagon Force
2) Infantry Force
3) Cavalry Force
4) Baggage Supply Train

A brief description of General Qi's Commando Team:
The Combat Wagon Force and Baggage Supply Train are equipped with large and medium caliber cannons. The "Commando Team" is the non-artillery combat component of the Combat Wagon Force and uses a wagon as a large mobile armoured platform. It consists of 8 men -- 4 musketeers (soldiers armed with Chinese-made Portuguese-style matchlocks) individually equipped with the Miao Daos, 2 musketeers both equipped with shield and single-handed saber, and 2 more soldiers both equipped with trident polearms and fire-arrows (arrows driven by gunpowder-propelled rockets).

Upon contacting the enemy, the wagons are to be setup in a rectangular formation and all personnel are to withdraw within this defensive perimeter. After the cannons, muskets and fire-arrows are fired first at long range against the Mongols, the Commando Team would park their long range weapons inside the wagon, then move out of the defensive perimeter and deploy in formation, using their Miao Daos, sabers and shields, plus the trident polearms for close-quarters combat.

As mentioned earlier, the Combat Wagon Force and Baggage Supply Train are equipped with large and medium caliber cannons. General Qi stipulates that for non-artillery soldiers, almost all soldiers specifically equipped with the musket were to be issued with the Miao Dao as a standard issue close-quarters weapon.

The percentage of non-artillery soldiers in the Combat Wagon Force and Baggage Supply Train equipped with this musket/Miao Dao combo (ie those who are not manning the cannons) is 50%.

Another 50% of the Infantry Force are also equipped with the combo. As for the Cavalry Force, the muskets/Miao Dao takes up 20%.


One simple and specific training technique for General Qi's soldiers wielding the Miao Dao is to setup two thick wooden poles, one short and one long, spaced 2 feet apart.

The soldier will then use the Miao Dao like a zhanmadao, bending low while advancing and striking first at the bottom part of the shorter pole to simulate cutting through the horse's legs, afterwhich he will raise and turn slightly to strike the upper part of the longer pole, simulating the strike on the horse's head -- A practical scenario for when the horse dies, the enemy soldier/rider loses his mobility and becomes meat on the platter for the Chinese soldiers.

General Qi had also stipulated compulsory 2-person combat drills using wooden sticks for mock practice, for use in his army.

In my opinion, later on, the Ming "changdao" appears to have evolved into the "wodao" during the Qing Dynasty, as a 2-handed saber used by the Green Standard Army. See my webpage on "Illustrations of Qing Regulation Swords".


Click on the above pic to view other examples of Chinese sabers with ridged cross-sections.

THIS should be the real bases of the Ming forces. it WAS a direct discription of their forces against the Mongols during this period. the armies deployed against japan in Korea wasn't quiet as elite but it was similar.

http://chineseswords.freewebspace.com/photo5.html

this is the site that it's from. a lot of the research are also disscussed at

http://www.chinahistoryforum.com

[Nelduin]

Thanks a lot for your posts, they will be really very useful. Be sure we will make a Ming Army more realistic for the v3.

[Arekkusu]

will there be NO campaign in version 3?

[Nelduin]

For the moment, a campaign isn't planned. But if some motivated people want to join the team and make it, we would be very happy....

[GreatOne]

Why do all fantasy mods doesn't have campaigns?

Oh WHY?

May I ask if I can post somewhere else that you are looking for CM makers?

And I thought Pius joined you?

[Nelduin]

Why do all fantasy mods doesn't have campaigns?

Battles of Asia isn't a fantasy mod . It's an historic mod focused on the Sengoku Jidai Era.

I sent a PM to Pius two weeks ago but he didn't answer yet.

[Ponz0]

Will u do special look for all Daimyos?
Is Tokugawa only new clan for v3?
Historical battles wud be Okehazama, Kawanakajima.