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Thread: Making the ai more agressive

  1. #1
    MORBIDYAM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Making the ai more agressive

    I don't know about you guys but 6.1 isn't challenging enough in the ways that it should be. The ai simply isn't aggressive enough and this limits the amount of factions that are fun to play as.

    It seems like all the focus has been on making the ai smarter, but this seems to be impossible, so I suggest giving the ai large forces and making them super aggressive. I just want to have the feeling that I can be wiped out, or at least a large portion of my empire could be wiped out if it is not adequately defended. I end up only playing as factions such as Ireland or Norway because they don't start out with large empires that are already semi entrenched. I mean it is no fun to play as the Byzantines when a jihad means 5 full stacks will stand outside of Constantinople, but no action will be taken against the rest of the empire besides the normal siege of some random thing every 5 turns. I just wish there was a mod that made it so when a nation declares war on you they send at least 2 full stacks against every city that you have. I have grown tired of games where you are sieged by 1 full stacks then maybe every 10 turns by another.

    Considering the stupidity of ai, without large forces they never pose a credible threat. Even if they do manage to take something there is no follow up. I mean it is just ridiculous when you take a boat full of deisi javelinmen to Jerusalem and manage to carve out an empire in the middle east. I mean it is enjoyable to do so, but it should at least take effort.

    It seems like the orthodox now is to make the game harder by increasing build times and dissent, which does make it harder, but also makes the game even more boring because battles are more scarce and you have fewer of them.

    Basically I want to feel proud when I kill an enemy, I don't want to feel like I just cheated a mentally retarded child out of Jerusalem or something like that, and i just thing the best way to go about this is through making the ai have greater numbers and rampant aggression rather than making units take excessively long times to build and cities just randomly rebelling at high rates

    So I just wonder, is this possible? Is anyone working on it? I don't mean to sound so critical, its just that i the only time the game was really challenging was my first time playing vanilla, when I didn't know how to really play the game, and I didn't know the ai so well, and I crave that feeling again!

    So what are your thoughts, would you rather have an ai that just goes around wantonly attacking things with huge armies or an ai that is lukewarmly intelligent with mild armies, but greater build times and increased rebellion?
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Zuma View Post
    he don't download my mod and say that there are stuff from DLV and BC maybe he Nostradamus
    tAnGeRiNeS fOr ThOuGhT? i ThInK NOT!


  2. #2

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    i agree with you, for example the mongols, in vanilla they were more agressive , i miss that, because in all my games in SS the mongols sux, and i want a real horde.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    You make alot of valid points that im sure most people on here agree with. In short, to answer your question, It IS possible to make the AI ALOT more challenging (like forcing the AI to attack more then one settlement when jihading or crusading or just at war). You can literally make the AI do what ever you want at any time. So yes, it can be made harder and more challenging. The one problem with that however is that it all needs to be scripted (well alot of it), which in turn slows the turns down alot and most people dont care for long turn times (they want instant turn changes so they dont wait). So if you dont mind waiting 5 minutes for a turn (like the old anno domino which in my opinion is the only mod i ever played that was challenging) then it is easy to create a harder AI. But as i said, most people dont want to wait longer then a minute for there next turn (otherwise you would find alot of scripts floating around that do just that!)

    I personally dont care for longer turn times, as long as it is warrented and makes the game more challenging (not just hard or impossible). If i had someone to collaberate with and to help work on the scripts i would be all over it. besides, i still currently dont have ss6 lol
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

  4. #4
    MORBIDYAM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    yeah I wouldn't mind longer turns if stuff actually happened, and the longer turn time could be made up for by stopping multiple princesses from trying to bribe your cities every turn. But to me it just seems like with the size of the map you need more armies. I would make the scripts if I knew anything about modding, as I have plenty of time, but I figure by the time I figured out how to mod at a competent level Empire total war would be out and so my efforts would be completely wasted.

    I have come to the point where basically the ai is so predictable that the only thing that changes is the rate at which you conquer large swathes of land, i miss vanilla where the papal sates were a superpower that had half of France, instead of the way they are now where they cant even hold onto Rome. I miss superpowers, now everything just kind of stagnates and basically the game is now watching the map to see if any faction takes a province that they haven't taken in the last 6.022e^23 campaigns.

    By the way out of curiosity, do you have an estimate on how much more time would it take the turns to progress?
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Zuma View Post
    he don't download my mod and say that there are stuff from DLV and BC maybe he Nostradamus
    tAnGeRiNeS fOr ThOuGhT? i ThInK NOT!


  5. #5

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    i would prefer better AI instead of long turn times.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    It would all depend on how many scripts were written and what they actually did as to how long the turns would take. I dont know if you ever played anno domino way back when (before kingdoms) but what that mod achieved or did was have random spawnings every turn all over the map, it forced spawned armies to attack and siege settlements the same turn, it in effect had many factions represented by the slave faction (obviously unplayable but present, as an example, ireland and wales were not playable but were represented as slave armies which held and took settlements), it also had a variety of events (like the royal hunt). and it was rather challenging. The turn times for that were roughly 2 -3 minutes (although i did see longer times later in the campaign).

    I beleive DLV has incorperated much of the spirit of anno domino and from what i hear it is rather challenging (but once again, has long turn times). I regret that i have not played that mod yet!

    I peronally like the feel of Stainless Steel and think KK has done a brilliant job. I wouldnt mind seeing longer turn times because of more scripts that do similar to AD.
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

  7. #7

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    I've found a way to make game a bit more challenging. Firstly you must have RAJ, it makes you suffer more casualties from enemy archers, then you have to change money script so that it'll give AI smth about 4k additional money per turn. In my campaign AI developed very quickly and has lots of troops. Each battle is challenging because you have to fight versus 1 or 2 full stacks of enemy forces. Defeat is now common for me =/

  8. #8

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    I want a mod or/and money script that'll have AI garrisoning ALL their settlements permanently, like minimum half to 2/3 stack before sending out offensive parties, regardless of relationship status with neighbouring countries.

    It's way too easy to take cities/castles with 1 or 2 units in there...
    Last edited by PeteAce; May 11, 2008 at 05:54 PM.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    It is a real pity that the AI for M2TW is so poor. There is only so much you can do with it. XAI is a great AI and so is Lusteds (the only 2 ive tried). But when it comes to getting the AI to think like a human you need to put a human in its place (script it). It would be very easy to write a script that checks the AI settlement's military forces, if less then such-and-such a number create such-and-such unit\s. you could throw in other conditions like factions total number of settlements, treasury, at war\peace etc etc and generally create an AI that requires 'thought' to defeat ( i previously wrote a script that did exactly that). But you need to be willing to sacrifice turn time for such a mod.

    I have not had the oppertunity to try RAJ, but from what i have read, it is a very nice piece of work.

    As for money scripts, im kind of against them. unless they are very well balanced. most of them seem to have the AI with stupid amounts of cash or a stupid number of units (there is a difference between a challenge and down right hard or impossible).

    I feel that if most players were not anti the turn wait issue, then you would see alot more challenging mods\scripts.
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

  10. #10

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    Quote Originally Posted by Tsarsies View Post
    As for money scripts, im kind of against them. unless they are very well balanced. most of them seem to have the AI with stupid amounts of cash or a stupid number of units (there is a difference between a challenge and down right hard or impossible).\scripts.
    I for one would like the AI to have stupid amounts of cash and a stupid number of units. I know how to give them a lot of cash, but how do I make them have a insane amount of units? Like full stacks all over the place? I don't care if it doesn't know how to use them, I'd rather it have a lot of units it doesn't know how to use than just 2 or 3 in a stack that I can just step over.

    How do you give the AI a stupid number of units? I would like to know...

    Thanks

  11. #11
    MORBIDYAM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    I was playing DLV today and I realized that if SS used the navigable rivers thing and also made it to where if you attack a major city and it has 1 guy in it, militia instantly appear in the city so that you can't have a crusade against 1 spear militia. That in itself would be revolutionary, and make sense since the people dwelling in a large city would rise up to defend their land. Also I like money scripts, when I was playing 5.1 Sicily had masses and masses of full stacks and a huge empire, i relocated from Lithuania to Rome and managed to still relatively easily fight them all off by strategically placing my armies in certain locations. Navigable rivers would also be cool make 2 or 3, anymore than that would make the map look weird. I think it might help crusade ai if central European factions could just go down the Danube on a boat rather than walk.

    I realized that heavy scripting in DLV does make that game ridiculously complicated and you basically die at the beginning, but I think SS would be benefited by implementing the aforementioned things.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Zuma View Post
    he don't download my mod and say that there are stuff from DLV and BC maybe he Nostradamus
    tAnGeRiNeS fOr ThOuGhT? i ThInK NOT!


  12. #12

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    I agree. I dont have SS6 at the moment due to computer issues, how ever i would like to look into implimenting somthing of the sort.

    I do like money scripts, but only if they are WELL balanced. For me it is a total immersion thing. as an example, I like the idea of blockading enemy ports but not if they are recieving ridiculous amounts of money regardless, that to me is not a balanced money script. Before my computer issues i had written a script that worked with a money script whilst a port was blockaded, it greatly decreased the ai income (dependant on settlement and related faction information) and increased the players income (dependant on number of blockades in effect, factionstanding and other related information). The script itself was not entirely complete and therefore i never released it as a mini mod. I lost it along with alot of other M2TW files\scripts i was working on when my pc took a dump.

    @DrMumbo
    There are various ways to increase the AI's military output. Each with its perks and downfalls. You can change the recruit priority in the EDB, edit the values in the xml file (as the various AI mods do to varying degrees of success), script spawns through the campaign script, edit the AI personalities in the descr_strat, money scripts tend to increase the AI's military output (dependant on AI personality aswell tho). All of which require atleast some modding ability. But with that said, all these have been used by various mini mods to some degree, although i havent seen a mini mod that incorperates ALL of them in the one mini mod.
    There was a mod released for SS5 that had ridiculous amounts of AI armies (10 to your 1, all full stacks), but i have no idea where to find it in these boards or what it was called. It may have been one of zuma's (sp?) endeavors? That was rather difficult!
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

  13. #13

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    I have played DLV extensively, and only recently tried SS. I upgraded my computer last summer to really be able to tolerate the time between turns, and at this point I really don't notice it. I'd trade longer wait times for challenging and realistic AI at any time. I'm not sure the campaign AI there is as good as SS with Lusted. In my current Byzantine game, Nicoscia has been under constact attack from Egyptian stacks that sail to and invade the territory. This never happened in DLV. Not once. The problem I see right now with SS so far is that the computer isn't putting enough troops into the field. That is never really a problem with DLV. My month-old game of that features a stalemate between Acre and Jerusalem, with multiple full stacks on either side. The attrition (on vh/vh) is so bad there that I can't just smash his stacks.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    Tsarsies
    Funny you should mention Anno Dommini, as my events project (when I get time) certainly harks back to such a mod. I certainly want to make sure that when I play Byzantium on >=Hard I have lots of trouble to deal with. As to general garrisoning, imo thats a EDU/EDB issue, although the Ai certainly needs an increase in its invasion build up values.

    To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.
    Paul Ehrlich

  15. #15

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    When I've tried Broken Crescent mod I noticed that main CAI tactic is making hordes of troops. I've never seen faction with less that 3-4 stacks and usually large factions had 10+ full stacks. If it's not prohibited by BC team, somebody will compare BC's and SS's AI and make neccesaty changes?

  16. #16

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    AirnetSnake
    Broken Crescent uses a modified GrandViz UAI I believe, so you could try using that.

    To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.
    Paul Ehrlich

  17. #17
    MORBIDYAM's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    how hard would it be to implement the garrison script from DLV. because at the very least that allows cities to never have just their king and peasants in a city that is being crusaded on, seems like on of the few things that could be added that doesn't have a downside.

    Also I think a hyper aggressive papal states might be a worthwhile thing to add. Although it is unrealistic, I think the papal states should be scripted to try to vigorously destroy whoever is excommed/crusaded upon, because as of now the pope is quite worthless, excommunication has no threat of mass military attack and the pope does nothing but sit in Rome (if he manages to keep that) I remember vanilla when the pope would be out conquering French territories and I was terrified of excommunication. The pope should conquer vast tracts of land, then be scripted to sell them to whoever has the most papal favor. He should also be alot harder to please (at least for the human player)

    Another suggestion that might be a little controversial is to merge the Templars and the papal states, that way you have Pope as faction leader then grandmaster as faction heir (since he would never become pope since popes are elected), that way the pope could use the Templars as his personal army (since the Templars as a faction are unrealistic anyway) In this way, the Templars are not just left to die in Outremer, but instead can be used as a merciless military order that expands in power at the will of the pope. Combine that with aggressive ai and you get a military order that actually poses a great threat to the middle east and the excommed houses of Europe and would also be a more dignified usage of the Templars faction slot. It also would end the annoyance of seeing papal generals named things like Pius II, because I have always found that a little weird.
    Last edited by MORBIDYAM; May 12, 2008 at 12:18 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Master Zuma View Post
    he don't download my mod and say that there are stuff from DLV and BC maybe he Nostradamus
    tAnGeRiNeS fOr ThOuGhT? i ThInK NOT!


  18. #18

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    Quark
    As I know BC doesn't use any version Ultimate AI, it's something new but I also belive it has a lot from UAI. GrandViz was a master-scripter for BC and had done great work, there are a lot of spawning and money tweaks and scripts for each faction.
    I've looked through all CAI files and some others but just couldn't find anything connected with recruiting new armies by AI. If somebody skilled enough advise where to search AI's recruitment tactics and abilities it'd be much easier to explore and find a solution.

  19. #19
    romy's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    See here : http://www.twcenter.net/forums/downl...o=file&id=1767 but I don't know if it works with 6.0 or 6.1!

  20. #20

    Default Re: Making the ai more agressive

    @Quark
    I have been keeping track of your progress in the events thread regarding your mini mod, im still intereted in helping with the scripting, just have not pm'd you due to still not having ss6

    @romy
    I think that was the mod i was thinking of that greatly increases the military stacks of the AI.

    @MORBIDYAM
    how hard would it be to implement the garrison script from DLV. because at the very least that allows cities to never have just their king and peasants in a city that is being crusaded on, seems like on of the few things that could be added that doesn't have a downside.
    It would be more time consuming then hard to impliment. There have been a few garrison scripts floating around for SS, but once again it comes back to most SS players not wanting to wait a long time for such a feature. I have written alot of different scripts but never attempted a garrison script, which i think i will when i eventually get ss6. If i remember correctly, somone had a garrison script floating around for ss5 that only affected factions capitals and main area of control (due to turn time). I'll see if i can find that in the forums somewhere and use that as a basis for a working script. It wouldnt be hard to impliment some kind of garrison script, just time consuming.
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

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