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Thread: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

  1. #1
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    After reordering the AOR it is also proper to start thinking about the colony system we currently have.

    As we know, RTW/BI allows only for 3 working religions, limiting our actions quite a bit but not completely.
    While we will still have to move under the western/eastern/barbarian system we can at least make it in a way that allows more freedom in faction development and slows down a bit more the snowball effect.

    What will allow this is to have an "ethnic" colony system.

    Here is a basic overview:

    Currently each faction is able to build factional barracks as long as the colony level is sufficient.
    When you conquer territories with the same colonies, no matter the culture you can still expand like it was in your homelands, while your expansion would be slowed down somewhat when you met another culture's colonization affecting public order and so on.

    With the new colony system this will expand and will be much more dynamic:

    When expanding you can still count on the cultural advantages of having the same religion but not on the military side.
    If for example you are playing Rome you will have your homelands with native latin population but let's say you want to expand in Greece: what would happen?

    When you conquer a settlement the cultural advantages still apply because both factions are western civilized but you won't be allowed to build roman barracks right away because the population is hellenistic and not used to your italic style of war.
    Auxiliary barracks will still allow you to recruit a selection of local units but your factional units will have to wait until the locals will be retrained under your culture.

    Building a roman colony will make available the first level of your roster troops and provide additional western civilized cultural influence, making the conversion to other cultures harder. Additional colonies will give you a chance to recruit even more factional troops until you get most of your roster available.

    What are the advantages of such a system?

    - It slows down military development without hurting stability
    - It will allow local militia recruitment instead of the factional one
    - We will be able to truly show the multicultural nature of some cities
    - It will open the way for dynamic AOR and make recruitment more historically accurate
    - late game expansion will be much more diverse

    Here is a basic scheme of ethnic distribution:

    Roman:
    Rome, roman rebels

    Celto/Germanic:
    Gauls
    Indipendent Gauls
    Germans

    Iberian:
    Iberian

    Punic (will change into lybi-phoenician post marius):
    Carthage

    Hellenistic:
    GCS/IGCS
    Macedon
    Seleucids
    Ptolemies
    Baktria
    Pontus (Post Marius)

    Persian:
    Armenia
    Pontus (Pre Marius)
    Parthia (Post Marius)

    Illiro-Getic:
    Thrace

    Nomadic:
    Scythia
    Parthia (Pre Marius)

    Arabic:
    Saba

    Special Case:
    Eastern kingdoms and rebels won't be able to build any colony and will generate a different religion bonus from the goverment building based on AOR.

    What's left to do?

    All we need to do is to create the buildings needed and to place the correct native colonies on the map plus some EDB research to find out how much we can stretch the AOR system with the colonies or alternatively we could allow some extra recruitment options through barracks built by other factions (but only if it's true about the unit limit CTD not being present).
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  2. #2
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    As there are 64 building tree slot in RTW, now they are using about 49(XGM) or 50(Caesar's current edition). So there are 14 slots left.

    I'm not so understand how you implement this feature which maybe need at least 9 slots of building tree or more to work. If my understanding is correct, you want to replaced original 3 colonys system building while still retain 3 main cultures feature which similar to what I done in ethnic traits project. Problem will came when you code barrack requirement which will be much more complicate(easiest way is to have 1 unique barrack/subculture but would waste too much slot)

    On Subculture. I think post-marius Baktria should be Indo-Sakae(which reflect in my proposed rosters) which no longer highly Hellenistic and quite distinct to others as they are very hybrid of Persian, Iindian, Hellenistic, and nomadic Sakae and more alienated to hellenistic world. In my opinion, change of subculture abruptly by marian reform would caused more problem than promising. Although I created Ethnic traits Module to reflect changing of state culture though Traits for Pontus and Baktria but it gradually happen not instantly. But problems may not as much as I think for experienced players who prepare for culture change.

    On Parthia, Will nomadic group's colony start as barbarians or varied by factions(can be done by more complicated conditioning)? I prefer Parthia to be able to build barrack in both persian and nomad colony rather than only persian post-marius.
    Last edited by Suppanut; April 29, 2008 at 05:24 AM.
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  3. #3
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Could we merge Iberian with Celto/Germanic group?

    How about this?

    Roman:
    Rome, roman rebels

    Celto/Germano/Iberian:
    Gauls
    Indipendent Gauls
    Germans
    Iberian

    Punic (will change into lybi-phoenician post marius):
    Carthage

    Hellenistic:
    GCS/IGCS
    Macedon
    Seleucids
    Ptolemies
    Baktria (Pre Marius)
    Pontus (Post Marius)

    Persian:
    Armenia
    Pontus (Pre Marius)
    Parthia (Post Marius)

    Indo-Helleno-Sakae
    Baktria (Post Marius)

    Illiro-Getic:
    Thrace

    Nomadic:
    Scythia
    Parthia (Pre Marius)

    Arabic:
    Saba

    Special Case:
    Eastern kingdoms and rebels won't be able to build any colony and will generate a different religion bonus from the goverment building based on AOR.
    Last edited by Suppanut; April 30, 2008 at 09:23 AM.
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  4. #4

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    So to try to simplify things, you are proposing a change wherein there are several different types of colonies, not just three. Am I correct?

    Anyway, as a far as stretching recruitment options, it is possible, complex, but possible.
    One option is somewhat irksome, in that, we can have the colonies as a requirement for the units (ala RTR), but that means that there would be an ever present, easy to trigger CTD waiting to happen from the building detail scroll. An alternate way would be to have the recruitment directly from the colony, this would cut out the CTD, but it would also allow recruitment as soon as the colony was completed, which may or may not be desirable.

    I'm thinking this could be its own sub-mod, separate from the Post-Marian Project.

  5. #5
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Quote Originally Posted by CaesarVincens View Post
    So to try to simplify things, you are proposing a change wherein there are several different types of colonies, not just three. Am I correct?

    Anyway, as a far as stretching recruitment options, it is possible, complex, but possible.
    One option is somewhat irksome, in that, we can have the colonies as a requirement for the units (ala RTR), but that means that there would be an ever present, easy to trigger CTD waiting to happen from the building detail scroll. An alternate way would be to have the recruitment directly from the colony, this would cut out the CTD, but it would also allow recruitment as soon as the colony was completed, which may or may not be desirable.

    I'm thinking this could be its own sub-mod, separate from the Post-Marian Project.
    The idea could be to just use colonies to allow recruitment from previously built foreign factional barracks (which in turn would have required colonies themselves anyway).
    It won't be very elegant and have strategical drawbacks but if all else fails it may work.
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  6. #6

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    So for an example of what you said, (using simplified pseudo-code):

    Greek Barracks requires factions { greek, }
    recruit "greek soldier" 0 requires factions { greek, }
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, } and building roman_colony (THIS HAS A CTD ATTACHED TO IT)

    And for examples of what I said:
    Colony as recruitment requirement:

    Roman Barracks requires factions { roman, }
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, } and building roman_colony (THIS HAS A CTD ATTACHED TO IT)

    Colony as recruiting building:

    Roman Colony requires factions { roman, }
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, }

  7. #7
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    I think Zarax want something like

    Roman Barracks requires factions { roman, } and building roman_colony
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, }

    Greek Barracks requires factions { gcs, macedon, egypt, seleucid, britons } and building greek_colony and not marian reform or factions { gcs, macedon, egypt, seleucid, pontus } and building greek_colony and marian reform
    recruit "greek soldier" 0 requires factions { greek, }



    But I think this code is problematic and would not work due to the complication of condition that Zarax proposed especially on eastern culture factions.
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  8. #8
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppanut View Post
    As there are 64 building tree slot in RTW, now they are using about 49(XGM) or 50(Caesar's current edition). So there are 14 slots left.

    I'm not so understand how you implement this feature which maybe need at least 9 slots of building tree or more to work. If my understanding is correct, you want to replaced original 3 colonys system building while still retain 3 main cultures feature which similar to what I done in ethnic traits project. Problem will came when you code barrack requirement which will be much more complicate(easiest way is to have 1 unique barrack/subculture but would waste too much slot)

    On Subculture. I think post-marius Baktria should be Indo-Sakae(which reflect in my proposed rosters) which no longer highly Hellenistic and quite distinct to others as they are very hybrid of Persian, Iindian, Hellenistic, and nomadic Sakae and more alienated to hellenistic world. In my opinion, change of subculture abruptly by marian reform would caused more problem than promising. Although I created Ethnic traits Module to reflect changing of state culture though Traits for Pontus and Baktria but it gradually happen not instantly. But problems may not as much as I think for experienced players who prepare for culture change.

    On Parthia, Will nomadic group's colony start as barbarians or varied by factions(can be done by more complicated conditioning)? I prefer Parthia to be able to build barrack in both persian and nomad colony rather than only persian post-marius.
    As there are no plans about using the additional slots I think we could afford to use them, especially if we will cut the siege engineer tree like proposed.

    We could change baktria post marius to indo-sakae but that can be done later after we have enough roster to justify the changes.

    As for Parthia, same could be said pre-marius until we really work on the roster.
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  9. #9
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Quote Originally Posted by Suppanut View Post
    I think Zarax want something like

    Roman Barracks requires factions { roman, } and building roman_colony
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, }

    Greek Barracks requires factions { gcs, macedon, egypt, seleucid, britons } and building greek_colony and not marian reform or factions { gcs, macedon, egypt, seleucid, pontus } and building greek_colony and marian reform
    recruit "greek soldier" 0 requires factions { greek, }



    But I think this code is problematic and would not work due to the complication of condition that Zarax proposed especially on eastern culture factions.
    Not so complicated, it would be like:
    Roman Barracks requires factions { roman, } and building roman_colony
    recruit "roman soldier" 0 requires factions { roman, }
    recruit "roman soldier" requires factions { non roman }

    Of course with some roster/AOR limitations on it.

    Basically it means that if there is a colony there is a population of a certain cultural group and you can recruit from that as long as they developed some military of their own.

    For some hotspots it can mean that if 2-3 factions conquered the place and colonized it you could probably have access to a lot of low level units from different cultures plus what the native AOR would allow plus your roster.
    Last edited by Zarax; April 29, 2008 at 01:50 PM.
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  10. #10

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    So basically, you want a new colony for each major group, as well as a barracks for those groups?

    I think I could code those pretty quickly and get it back to you for your perusal.

  11. #11
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Quote Originally Posted by Zarax View Post
    As there are no plans about using the additional slots I think we could afford to use them, especially if we will cut the siege engineer tree like proposed.

    We could change baktria post marius to indo-sakae but that can be done later after we have enough roster to justify the changes.

    As for Parthia, same could be said pre-marius until we really work on the roster.
    Then we would really have 24 free slot for use(5 from old barrack, 3 from old colony, 1 from abolish siege workshop, 1 from merge elder circle with Academy, 14 from free slots).

    I will add Sakae traits for Baktria for Ethnic Traits modules soon.

    I'm not so understand clearly that which culture group Parthia is before reform, eastern or barbarians?
    Last edited by Suppanut; April 30, 2008 at 06:08 AM.
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  12. #12
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Parthia could be nomadic barbarian like Scythia pre-marius but it's something that can be done later as right now there is no roster change to justify it so we can leave it as eastern for now.
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  13. #13

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Liking the new ideas as I have recently been playing RTR which has a very similar system, and it works really well.

    Great to see that XGM will have this system too, however you should make it so that basic infantry and Aor units are harder to train, otherwise the AI will just spam them. Still keep up the good work.

    edit: Will this be in the next version?

  14. #14
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    I was not aware of RTR having something similar, it's a concept I've been working on for a while...

    And definitely this won't be for next version, it more a long term project from where DBH can take ideas than a real development (at least yet).
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  15. #15

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    In RTR nearly every faction gets its own barracks, mostly delineated along the lines you set forth, and they recruit AoR units like that, it's a sort of combination between XGM's AoR barracks, factional barracks, and culture colonies. So your idea, while being similar goes more in depth, IMO.

    Also, I've been working on getting new colonies and other such stuff, and I think the colonies are all nearly complete, I still need to work on a barracks for each group though, as only the Romans and Hellenics have their own separate ones right now.

  16. #16
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Do you want any new descriptions for new barracks and colonies specific to each factions? If you want then tell me and I will create them for you.
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  17. #17

    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    If you want to make them, it's not really necessary. I haven't finished coding the barracks yet though.

    Edit:
    Progress so far:
    Colonies:
    Romans: Complete
    Hellenic: complete, except does not include Pontus yet
    Celto-Germanic: Complete
    Iberian: Complete
    Nomad: Complete, except does not include Parthia yet
    Illiro-Getic: Complete
    Punic: Complete, except there is no way to my knowledge to change the name mid game other than modding the files
    Arab: Complete
    Persian: Complete, except Parthia starts in this group

    Barracks:
    Roman: Complete
    Hellenic: Complete
    Punic: Complete
    Persian/Arab: Need to separate
    All Barbarian: Need to separate

    Currently, all my work has been on my version of XGM with my changes for the main post-Marian project. There aren't many cross-overs (fifth level barbarian buildings are about it), however, I can switch this to a clean version if you would prefer that.
    Last edited by CaesarVincens; May 01, 2008 at 11:04 PM.

  18. #18
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    I think Carthage's colony as Punic post-reform is fine enough as it is very understandable for them.
    Last edited by Suppanut; May 02, 2008 at 01:20 AM.
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  19. #19
    Zarax's Avatar Triple Chaosmaster
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    We don't need to change the punic colony name after marius, the main change of the reforms would be to make a few liby-phoenician units available everywhere with a high enough colony level to reflect the greatly increased integration of carthaginians with libyans over time.

    Historically the solution used by carthage to control their diverse colonies was to use half-punics as their de facto standing army as they were loyal and capable soldiers available in much bigger number than the less military minded punics.
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  20. #20
    Suppanut's Avatar Idea-O-Matic
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    Default Re: Post Marian Project preparations: Redefining Colonization

    Thanks for enlighten us all. This made me understand what punic roster should look like more than before. This made Liby-Phoenician units being upgrade or higher level of civic ones.
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