-- Preview of Elves --

[sithlord447]

the noldor made the early HoME interesting but it would have been alot less desctrutive and evil had not the noldor come,

now that i am thinking if the valar had come and the noldor had not where would that leave the edain, no numenor ect

[christof139]

That is why Tolkien wrote the stories as he did, to show that all beings are imperfect in our RW etc. etc. etc.

[Jean=A=Luc]

I'm talking about facts. We were discussing the Noldor's role in defending ME not the veracity of their actions which are well known.

It was a lot more than several hundred years, try thousands. The point is Noldor were a major (more than any other) in ME's defense.

The Valar banned them from Valinor but why didn't they do anything about Morgoth? Are you saying they allowed all the men, elves and dwarves to die and suffer for thousands of years just to punish the Noldor? Does that sound right to you?

The thing is back in the 1st Age the Valar were somewhat afraid of Melkor and were reluctant (this is even mentioned in the Silmarilion) to fight him. The actions of Noldor should have nothing to do with their willingness to protect ME. They would have allowed ME and it's people to rot under Morgoth because of their inaction. That's the dual nature of the Noldor, they are both great sinners and great heroes.

And though it might pain you try to remember that Feanor and his sons weren't the only representatives of the Noldor race, remember Fingolfin, Finrod, Turgon, Gil-Galad, Galadriel etc.

[christof139]

And I and others are talking about facts concerning the Noldor and the evil and wrong they did, and even the Noldor acknowledged they did evil and they did wrong.

No, it doesn't 'pain' me in the least bit, but it apparently 'pains' you for some odd and unknown reason.

I already stated that the Noldor finally redeemed themselves in the eyes of the Valar, but it took several hundred years and much unnecessary death, destruction and waste for them to do so, and the Valar may have left them to their fate if it weren't for Earendil's pleading with the Valar for aid against Morgoth.

BTW, just curious, but you don't think you are one of those greedy etc. Noldo Elves do you???

[Beorn]

IMO Valar would have helped almost immediately the races of ME against Morgoth if there weren't the Alqualonde events...

[Elfhelm]

The sons of Feanor are quite undefendible and I doubt they would have gained pardon for their sins.had they lived, but I for one shall not judge the nobler Noldor for the crimes of the few!

[christof139]

Heh heh heh. Puts 'em all in the stew pot!!! It's breakfast time. Where's the tea and coffee and biscuts to go with the stew????

[Elfhelm]

Heh heh heh. Puts 'em all in the stew pot!!! It's breakfast time. Where's the tea and coffee and biscuts to go with the stew????

Sorry no tea,I only have lembas, times are hard!

[christof139]

Agghhh!! Eck!! Phooey!! Nasty Elveses' bread. Ptueey!!

[Jean=A=Luc]

BTW, just curious, but you don't think you are one of those greedy etc. Noldo Elves do you???

Yes, yes I do. With your amazing insight you have penetrated my facade and perceived deep into my psyche thus learning of my weaknesses and liabilities.

Do you remember what this discussion was about?

It's not about whether the Noldor did all those things or not or whether those things were good or bad. It's about their contributions to ME. They did much more good than bad, that's why they were pardoned, understand? I can't put it in any simpler terms than this.

[christof139]

Ha ha ha!! Where indeed is it stated or implied that this discussion is strictly about ONLY the Noldor's best characteristics and accomplishments and contributions?? In such a discussion the imperfect side of things is usually also discussed to provide a more or less balanced discussion and analysis of matters.

[Jean=A=Luc]

Ha ha ha!! Where indeed is it stated or implied that this discussion is strictly about ONLY the Noldor's best characteristics and accomplishments and contributions??

You're twisting my words now, it's not about that. This is what I tried to counter:

Without the Noldor acting as they did, many fellow Elves and men who not have died, and the Valar may have eventually taken matters into their own hands again and captured Melkor and imprisoned him again without the problems and waste of lives that the Noldor caused.

If I understand correctly you claim they did more damage to ME than good. That's where I disagree, for arguments see the above posts.

Discuss the Noldor flaws as much as you want, I was only arguing with that one part of your statement.

It seems you thought I was trying to deny all their sins and portray them as immaculate angels. No I wasn't, just so you're clear on that.

[christof139]

No, at first I was being jovial and joking, but in reality the Noldor did make some terrible errors. "Nasty Noldor knocking at the door, Trying to take everything you have and then some more. Making you mind and putting you in a bind, I don't like those nasty Noldor no more because they made me so ****ing poor."

[MDT]

I think Jean=A=Luc is right here, if the Valar had any intentions to defeat Morgoth at the beginning of the 1. age they wouldn't have let everybody suffer for the wrongs of the Noldor.
In my opinion it was just the greater plan of Illuvatar that things happend as they did ...
Otherwise Manwe wouldn't have stated after Earendils plea that the decision how to act was now given to him.
But untill then the Noldor were the only thing that stood between Morgoth and his total domination of ME and they held him at bay just long enouth.

PS: Ceterum censeo TA:TW esse evulgo.

[christof139]

The Valar would have eventually moved against Melkor in the 1st Age just as they previously had. The Noldors' actions got them banned from Valinor, IOTW, they were put on Manwe's and perhaps Illuvatar's poop list for several hundred years, and they had to redeem themselves at great cost to themselves and others, and also repent of their sins through their own personal realization that they had been wrong about many things. The Noldor are simply a reflection of the human race and human history.

I don't think it was in Illuvatar's 'greater plan' to have the Noldor commit the Kin Slaying of fellow Elves nor for Melkor to turn evil as he did.

[Iceclaw]

The awesomeness is deteriorating my eyes!!!

[MikeTW]

The Valar would have eventually moved against Melkor in the 1st Age just as they previously had. The Noldors' actions got them banned from Valinor, IOTW, they were put on Manwe's and perhaps Illuvatar's poop list for several hundred years, and they had to redeem themselves at great cost to themselves and others, and also repent of their sins through their own personal realization that they had been wrong about many things. The Noldor are simply a reflection of the human race and human history.

I don't think it was in Illuvatar's 'greater plan' to have the Noldor commit the Kin Slaying of fellow Elves nor for Melkor to turn evil as he did.

We're mere mortals my friend, don't try to understand the gods
And Iceclaw, I'd advise you to buy some good glasses before actually playing Third Age

[The Alchemist]

Great units. And to think the release is tomorrow!!

[aurther]

i have a question. in the into faction vid,

Spoiler for Elrond?: 

is that elrond? or is it just the standard elven general? also are there any custom leaders if thats not elrond like how william wallace looked seperate in the brits campaign?

[Mithrandir]

Standard general. Elrond doesn't have a unique model.