Thread: -- Preview of Elves --

  1. #2681

    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    No, the Elves also made their own weapons. The Elves of the Hidden Realm of Gondolin weren't trading much with the Dwarves, and made their own superb weapons and armor including Axes and War Mattocks. They also tunneled, built the magnificent stone city of Gondolin and the nearly impenetrable series of 7 Great Gates leading into the realm through a long and hidden tunnel. The weapons and armor made by the Noldo and Sindar were in the main equal to or better than Dwarven weapons, however, since Dwarven weapons and armor were extremely good and did surpass in quality some of the Elven weapons the Elves also bought and used them. The Dwarves also used Elven weapons and prized them greatly.
    Yeah well nothing can really be uber strict in a relatively realistic world such as Middle Earth. There are always variants. Some Men probably used elven weapons once in a while when they could get their hands on them, perhaps there has been dwarves using mankind, elven, or even hobbit weapons one day and so it's quite possible that elves used dwarven axes too. Same with real world I have no doubt that back in the middle age, some english generals or even soldiers took french or celtic weapons instead of their own...or the contrary

    Last edited by MikeTW; April 14, 2009 at 08:05 PM.

  2. #2682
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTW View Post
    Yeah well nothing can really be uber strict in a relatively realistic world such as Middle Earth. There are always variants. Some Men probably used elven weapons once in a while when they could get their hands on them, perhaps there has been dwarves using mankind, elven, or even hobbit weapons one day and so it's quite possible that elves used dwarven axes too. Same with real word I have no doubt that back in the middle age, some english generals or even soldiers took french or celtic weapons instead of their own.
    Of course. A good number of Men - at least many Leaders etc. - appear to have used Elven weapons since the Elves gave them as gifts to the Men, and the Men also no doubt used some Dwarven weapons. I am not arguing that Elves didn't use Dwarven weapons and clearly state they did and Tolkien also states they did. What I am saying is that all Dwarven and for that matter Elven weapons were not uber weapons, and some OPs here seem to want to make it a strict 'rule' that all Dwarven weapons are the only uber weapons in ME, and that wasn't the case. You misunderstand what I cleary wrote and explained.

  3. #2683

    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    Of course. A good number of Men - at least many Leaders etc. - appear to have used Elven weapons since the Elves gave them as gifts to the Men, and the Men also no doubt used some Dwarven weapons. I am not arguing that Elves didn't use Dwarven weapons and clearly state they did and Tolkien also states they did. What I am saying is that all Dwarven and for that matter Elven weapons were not uber weapons, and some OPs here seem to want to make it a strict 'rule' that all Dwarven weapons are the only uber weapons in ME, and that wasn't the case. You misunderstand what I cleary wrote and explained.
    I agree with you. And IMO the only "uber" weapons anyway are the enchanted ones such as glamdring, sting and the others which are of elven or dwarven fabrication
    Even if there is necessarily some superiority with elven bows or dwarven axes over other races bows or axes Every races have their own speciality
    Last edited by MikeTW; April 14, 2009 at 08:19 PM.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by MikeTW View Post
    I agree with you. And IMO the only "uber" weapons anyway are the enchanted ones such as glamdring, sting and the others which are of elven or dwarven fabrication
    Even if there is necessarily some superiority with elven bows or dwarven axes over other races bows or axes Every races have their own speciality
    Yup, the magically enchanted weapons and armor were the uber ones, and the Elves made the best of those it seems. Dwarves made higher than standard weapons and armor compared to Men, and no doubt equal to standard Elven ones, and the best of the Dwarven weapons rivalled the best of the Elven ones, but the best of the best were Noldo Elven weapons. The Elves of Gondolin, mainly Noldo with some Sinda, most likely made most of their own weapons previously in Valinor and also in ME and Gondolin itself, and no doubt had some Dwarven weapons. However, it is not right to ASSUME that ALL the Sindar axes were of Dwarven make and Tolkien does not state this at all.

    For a game/mod, Dwarven and Noldo and Sindar standard weapons and armor might be equal, and only the elite units would have the best of the best weapons and armor. Slightly difficult to get the stats for the troops somewhat reasonable concerning this, but it shouldn't be or have been too hard.

    BTW, read the Silamarillion and UT for the somewhat detailed descriptions of the Elves of Gondolin if you haven't already.
    Last edited by christof139; April 14, 2009 at 08:28 PM.

  5. #2685
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Most well-known weapon ever was Narsil and it was made by Telchar. He also made Angrist and Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Narsil wasn't necessarily the most powerful weapon ever made but maybe the most well-known and well-known does not = best, and the same applies to the sword Angrist and the Dragon Helm, and Telchar was not *the greatest smith* ever to exist in ME. "A Dwarf of Nogrod in the Blue Mountains, and one of the greatest smiths in the history of Middle-earth. Among his works were Angrist (the knife that freed the Silmaril from the Iron Crown), Narsil (the sword of Elendil, later reforged for Aragorn as Andúril) and the Dragon-helm of Dor-lómin.", but Telchar was one of the greatest smiths to ever inhabit ME.

    Perhaps Gurthang was the greatest sword ever made, as it was forged of meteorite iron and reforged/refurbished in Noldo Elven Nargothrond when it had become dulled from continuous battle. Gurthang was also a magical sword and could understand speech and could itself talk and converse. A talking sword, plus it had intelligence and emotions.
    Last edited by christof139; April 15, 2009 at 02:12 AM.

  7. #2687
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Gurthang and another sword which was forged of same meteorite's metal were both forged by Eöl who was Sinda of Doriath but had moved to Nan Elmoth when Melian created invisible wall around forests. Its strength came from that special metal, it wasn't very well-made or anything like that even though Eöl was possibly most talented smith among Teleri. Anyway I think you already knew all this.
    Last edited by Varjon; April 15, 2009 at 08:44 AM.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    No, the Elves also made their own weapons. The Elves of the Hidden Realm of Gondolin weren't trading much with the Dwarves, and made their own superb weapons and armor including Axes and War Mattocks. They also tunneled, built the magnificent stone city of Gondolin and the nearly impenetrable series of 7 Great Gates leading into the realm through a long and hidden tunnel. The weapons and armor made by the Noldo and Sindar were in the main equal to or better than Dwarven weapons, however, since Dwarven weapons and armor were extremely good and did surpass in quality some of the Elven weapons the Elves also bought and used them. The Dwarves also used Elven weapons and prized them greatly.
    I meant that the Elves of Doriath hadn't the ability to make weapons with the value of Dwarvish ones, so when wolves and Orcs begun roaming in Beleriand bought their equipment from them. Laiquendi, Elves of the same genre, without such weapons were defeated by Orcs and survived only with Dwarves' help in the 2nd Battle of Beleriand. Noldor were of course the greatest smiths...

  9. #2689

    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Noldor where the best smiths back in valinor(working with Aule) but when they moved to ME they wherent as good as the dwarves...

    Anyway the best smith ever was Feanor, after him best one was a dwarf (dont remember his name)...

    BARDULIA!!!

  10. #2690
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Telchar.

  11. #2691

    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Thats it!

    BARDULIA!!!

  12. #2692
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    The Dwarves only surpassed the Noldor in two crafts, the hardening of steel, and the making of chainmail.

  13. #2693

    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    is there any mention of platemail in the books? i only read them all once or twice so i cant recall but i seem to only remember chainmail as being the be all and endall for armor in the books.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn of Carrok View Post
    I meant that the Elves of Doriath hadn't the ability to make weapons with the value of Dwarvish ones, so when wolves and Orcs begun roaming in Beleriand bought their equipment from them. Laiquendi, Elves of the same genre, without such weapons were defeated by Orcs and survived only with Dwarves' help in the 2nd Battle of Beleriand. Noldor were of course the greatest smiths...
    Yeah, I believe you are 110% right concerning the Elves of Doriath and the Green Elves of Ossirand, the Laquendi, but the Noldo Elves were tremendous smiths in ME and as good and better than the Dwarves, and some of the Sindar that lived with the Noldo also must have been excellent smiths.

    All Dwarves simply were not the supreme smiths as some people think, and Telchar was a great smith in ME but not the greatest.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjon View Post
    Gurthang and another sword which was forged of same meteorite's metal were both forged by Eöl who was Sinda of Doriath but had moved to Nan Elmoth when Melian created invisible wall around forests. Its strength came from that special metal, it wasn't very well-made or anything like that even though Eöl was possibly most talented smith among Teleri. Anyway I think you already knew all this.
    Oh, really!??! Gurthang was very well made and it slew Glaurung the father of Dragons and was used with great effect against Morgoth's creatures for many years. It broke in the end just as narsil was also broken.

    Noldo weapons were superb and all that equipped the first hosts of the Elves from Valinor had been forged in Valinor, and those weapons that were subsequently forged by the Noldo and their close Sinda allies were also excellent and as good as Dwarven arms. Even the books tell of the excellence of the Noldo at making weapons.

    Anyway, this is beating a dead horse, because for all practical purposes the majority of Noldo and Dwarven weapons and armor were about equal, with the weapons and armor made by the great Noldo and Dwarven smiths being the best of the best.
    Last edited by christof139; April 15, 2009 at 06:53 PM.

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    Yeah, I believe you are 110% right concerning the Elves of Doriath and the Green Elves of Ossirand, the Laquendi, but the Noldo Elves were tremendous smiths in ME and as good and better than the Dwarves, and some of the Sindar that lived with the Noldo also must have been excellent smiths.

    All Dwarves simply were not the supreme smiths as some people think, and Telchar was a great smith in ME but not the greatest.
    I was talking about ONLY Sindar and Nandor

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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by Beorn of Carrok View Post
    I was talking about ONLY Sindar and Nandor
    I know, and I agreed with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although the Sinda that were close allies and friends of the Noldo learned much from the Noldo.

  18. #2698
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    Oh, really!??! Gurthang was very well made and it slew Glaurung the father of Dragons and was used with great effect against Morgoth's creatures for many years. It broke in the end just as narsil was also broken.
    Okay, you are right. Gurthang was well made since it was reforged but original sword Anglachel wasn't beautiful sword. It was black and blunt when Beleg took it from Menegroth. I mainly meant its appearance, not its lethality.

    Quote Originally Posted by christof139 View Post
    I know, and I agreed with you!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Although the Sinda that were close allies and friends of the Noldo learned much from the Noldo.
    Except those who lived in Doriath.
    Last edited by Varjon; April 16, 2009 at 08:41 AM.

  19. #2699
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Yeah. Thingol was rather annoying sometimes...

  20. #2700
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    Default Re: -- Preview of Elves --

    Quote Originally Posted by Varjon View Post
    Okay, you are right. Gurthang was well made since it was reforged but original sword Anglachel wasn't beautiful sword. It was black and blunt when Beleg took it from Menegroth. I mainly meant its appearance, not its lethality.



    Except those who lived in Doriath.
    Oh, I don't think it says Gurthang the Black Sword was dull when Beleg was first given it by the King. Gurthang at that time was a well known and powerful weapon ready for battle. It was reforged/refurfibished in Nargothrond after much battle use in the hand of Turin T. After this reforging it glowed a bit and had some flames on its cutting edges I do believe (I forget exactly). It is my favorite sword of ME as you can plainly deduce .

    The Elves of Doriath weren't on the best of terms with the Noldo but no doubt made some of their own weapons and armor as well as buying more from the Dwarves and perhaps some from the Noldo.
    Last edited by christof139; April 16, 2009 at 04:19 PM.

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