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Thread: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

  1. #41

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    The Polish get heavy hussars in 6.0 I believe.
    This is still not clear. And also such unit is not suitable for medieval game. Polonized Hussars became heavy circa second half of XVIc, so pretty much when SS (that already have extended in comparison to vanilla time frame) ending.

    The release is in days, maybe weeks and is being polished at the moment. Adding such a rework to the todo list most probably can't happen without a huge delay (and nobody wants a delay).
    When I started this thread I had no idea when 6.0 would be released. If it is really a matter of days, then maybe KK would consider introducing some improvements to Poland in next patch, 6.1 perhaps?

    3. Define lack. What type of infantry are you looking for specifically. As far as I can tell Dis Polish Knights fulfill the role of elite hvy infantry nicely and Dis Polish Nobles serve well elite spears. Are you looking for 2h hvy infantry or 1h ap inf?
    I think something like Burreks’s Sergeant Swordsmen (so infantry of medium heaviness) would be nice. Also I would give axe to polish retainers as a secondary weapon (which was equally popular as a sword among Polish medieval cavalry) and dismount them for solid medium assault infantry. Also Dismounted Nobles should not be spearmen – there are no traces in sources of noble spearmen in Polish army. The best solution would be renaming Polish Nobles to Piast Druzhina and making dismounted version javeliners.

    6. Pavise unit as in pavise crossbow? Just wanted to point out that the pavise crossbow unit that was shown in the pictures you provided was labelled as a "Mercenary Pavise". I believe that is currently a merc unit that can be recruited in the Polish sphere influence during the appropiate era.
    Hussite movement that made pavises extremely useful and popular among infantry in central Europe was in fact militaristic revolution that affected Polish army in large degree. Crossbowmen in late medieval period in Poland were:
    - militia in cities (consisted of Poles)
    - feudal servants in castles (consisted of Poles)
    - mostly mercenaries on battlefield, but this mercenaries had various origin – mostly Bohemian, Silesian and Polish, as Poland adopted Hussite innovations and infantry tactic immediately

    1. No way for the gothic armor.
    So you don’t want to see Polish units in accurate historical shape?

    And about the regions, Poland is perfectly balanced in 5.1... let us not spoil what is already good.
    Most people here and in general players I know percept Poland as interactive, unhistorical and boring. I have brought here solid documentation and few ideas based on it how to improve Poland so it became nice (by that I mean historical and unique) faction to play.
    but there are only 500 unique units
    I know that and say let’s revise current 500 units from the game and try to find a space for some new Polish troops.


    Heh. I wouldn't use Osprey for any degree of historical accuracy. There's some cool pictures, but that's about it.
    Some Osprey books are better, some other not so much, but I can assure you that this one is pretty nice when we consider historical accuracy. The only thing that bothers me with those pictures is Baltic pavise shield as an equipment of Polish XIIIc troops (historically such shield become popular in Poland about one century later).

    OMG no no no not another ing stupid polish supporters
    Stupid is your intolerance and arrogance.

    get it through your head 6.0 IS DONE, if you want it changed learn to mod and do it yourself.
    Actually we are making our mod ( http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=144354 ), but it will provide regional gameplay, while SS is mod with global map theatre.

    I’sorry, this is just like the 6th time in two weeks ive ran into people saying "you have to change the mod" and its ridiculous.
    Ridiculous is that you read but don’t understand the text. We are suggesting, helping with ideas and materials, but making no demands!

    I think we can all agree on the fact that we all want to see our nations represented as realistic and good as possible.
    I do not believe that Poland got less attention from CA then any other faction.
    If so, then why Polish roster is one of the smallest, and Polish infantry probably the weakest with largest compound of peasantry?

    In general I’m very disappointed that I started the thread as an initiative for positive changes in SS and got bashed by some malcontents and comments like “not again annoying stupid Polish supporters”. You know what is really annoying and stupid? Treating all Poles as stubborn nationalists and being blind for arguments and deaf for reasonable discussion. I think someone here is prejudiced against Poles, shameful matter
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; April 08, 2008 at 03:31 AM.

  2. #42
    gracul's Avatar 404 Not Found
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    So you don’t want to see Polish units in accurate historical shape?
    Gothic armor started appearing by the 1450's in Polish armies and thats near the end of SS, however im not familiar with the starting date of late period.
    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    Most people here and in general players I know percept Poland as interactive, unhistorical and boring. I have brought here solid documentation and few ideas based on it how to improve Poland so it became nice (by that I mean historical and unique) faction to play.
    SS already reached the region limit... if there are anymore regions to add somehow lets look maybe at Russia and the new countires.

  3. #43
    Krystoforos's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    However, I will point out that there are currently 500 units in the EDU (the version I have), meaning that there is no room for new units. Any units added to Poland must be removed elsewhere.
    It can be changed even in current pool of polish units. New look, new stats.

  4. #44

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    My view, I am very happy there is a faction thread for Poland. Its the best place to have a discussion about units, regions etc, and allows those that want to take part, develop unit models, text files etc, for this faction. Having everything in one place makes total sense, rather than having requests, moans, etc spread around 5 different threads.

    If people care about a subject, they should post, if people don't like that idea, what are you doing in a forum?

    What I think is needed however is a current map image and list of units, along with a proposed change. I think you have to assume that if you would like something new, you have to get rid of something old. If a change effects a unit, you have to look at wether that unit is used by another faction. Any change that improves both Poland and Hungry in terms of accuracy would be even better.

    To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.
    Paul Ehrlich

  5. #45
    Gorrrrrn's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    In terms of modding SS6.0 to improve the Polish representation:

    When it's finally released, I'd recommend any Polish (or other mod) to be constrained by the number of regions and units provided for that faction and work within those parameters. I'm sure we'd all like to see more historical realism in SS, and the more informative posts in this thread have given a lot of guidance as to what could be done.

    I'm sure many people will feel aggrieved when SS6.0 is released that their particular favourite faction is under-represented or has insufficient unique units. There is an inevitable trade off between the number of factions,the number of regions and the number of unique units. It's going to be difficult to keep everyone happy.

    (There is, of course, nothing to stop people doing their own regional scenarios using the SS framework. more the merrier!)

  6. #46
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    I'm glad this whole research is in one place on this forums. The last time there was a thread like this about Poland was before Kingdoms. Of course CA did nothing to improve the situation. So thanks for starting it. There is already a thread on Norway that made a difference, why not try something similar about Poland? If Greeks can get a province/city name changed because it offends them, maybe we also could have at least some simple changes applied, like long-awaited Warsaw -> Płock transition (check the maps!).

    I won't comment on BC guys saying that community wanting (or modding) changes in mods is a bad thing. We'll just see in a year if BC still has any fans left. I also don't care about guys who say "Oh no, not Poland again". Go read something else (Worship of Kong thread is a funny read) instead of bashing researchers here.

  7. #47

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    I won't comment on BC guys saying that community wanting (or modding) changes in mods is a bad thing. We'll just see in a year if BC still has any fans left. I also don't care about guys who say "Oh no, not Poland again". Go read something else (Worship of Kong thread is a funny read) instead of bashing researchers here.
    Excuse me? By the way, you're being passive-aggressive by saying "I won't comment", and then commenting in a very backhanded manner. If you want to say something about me, have enough decency to use my name and tell me what I did wrong rather than doing it passive-aggressively.

    I posted what I did and will not apologize for anything except my assumption that this was a topic of demands rather than suggestions. That was a mistake of mine, and this topic was made the way research should be done. In ideas and concepts rather than demands.

    It has been a case that some within the latest generation come to Modding teams and make demands with a feeling of self-entitlement. This happened as early as MTR before MTWII even came out - People were demanding this and that and claiming any sort of insult to the team if they refused their views. Yet this topic was not doing that wrongful thing, it was trying to be helpful, and when I realized my mistake you can see that I apologized for it, and agreed that if King Kong does not do it himself, then hopefully others will take up the task. I've never actually said community requests or modding is bad.

    By the way, did you read my second post?
    I am not sure they were actually being that aggressive phoenixxe, but I do agree that the best way for them to be satisifed, or for that matter any who are focused on a particular region or faction, is to modify 6.0 to their liking. If one's own personal interest is heavily on Eastern Europe, then Spain or Italy might not need as much in their own personal download of SS.
    KK cannot give every faction the rich treatment it deserves and he would want to, both because of time as well as because of game limitations. Thus, players who want a richer Poland or a richer England may need to edit it themselves. It's KK's choice to allow it. I have never said it's wrong of the community to want new things, or to mod them in. Only for them to demand it or feel entitled of it. Which this topic doesn't do.

    And this is not the topic for that discussion. You and I are disrespecting King Kong, and disrespecting the OP, by arguing in a topic meant to discuss Poland in SS. If you have a problem with BC, bring it up there, rather than defiling another great Mod's forum with your insults. Do you want to respect all that King Kong has done?

    Then follow in his example, and focus in making this mod great rather than try and tear down another mod because of personal reasons. All you succeed in that is fulfilling Echad's personal vendetta with Mirage, and robbing SS fans of the chance of trying BC, or BC fans of the chance of trying SS. I was dismayed to see people beginning to take personal sides in the two mods, when it should be a case of playing what is fun to you, not what you feel 'loyalty' to.

    That's just stupid. I'll be happy to try SS so long as I don't come into these forums and see people ranking on my friends and my mod. I doubt SS fans curious about BC would be interested in our forums had people insulting SS or members of it's community. You don't like what I said? Insult me. Don't insult people whose energy has been spent trying to bring another fun mod to TWC, and whose crime is wanting their work respected. And who didn't come and insult SS or King Kong when Echad was insulting us, the way you have BC at disagreement with me.


    King Kong and the OP and those who participated in the discussion, my apologies for it being dragged offtopic like this. I'll give some rep over for creating a topic for a good cause. I do hope King Kong or others will take inspiration from the valuable research done, and create something more respectful to Medieval Poland.
    Last edited by Ahiga; April 08, 2008 at 07:57 AM.

  8. #48

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    One of the problems with posting on forums is that we are not all gifted with a silver tongue, and therefore do not always write what we mean, and that rather like an argument with your wife/partner anything you do say can come with a whole load of baggage which has nothing to to with the actual point, and is probarly not even understood by either party, which is why they cannot see the large chip on thier shoulders.

    So in a nice and friendly SS forum lets remember that the debate (I love that word) is about ways to improve the representation of Poland, and that passion is a very admirable trait, if tempered by a little wisdom.

    I do not believe that anyone is trying to bash, anyone elses work. I would be opposed to such, as the loving labour that people put into mods can be critised, debated, hotly argued over etc, but you should always remember that they have spent a serious portion of there life on said mod, and therefore may be a little touchy about it.

    As to the point - I will try and put together a unit card+names list for 6.0 (as it currently stands) along with a map image of current region. I would suggest that what we then do is use that to discuss the removal of some units and what they could be replaced with, along with any province suggestions. As said, this is probarly a bit late for 6.0, and KK may disagree with some of it anyway. My view has always been its his mod, so what goes in is his decision. However I am happy to mod a few things for my personal tastes, and a good idea is a good idea so to speak. So lets try and put together a mini mod and then if KK likes some of it, it may make its way into 6.1. If not then at least those people who like to play the polish faction get a bonus.

    To err is human, but to really foul things up you need a computer.
    Paul Ehrlich

  9. #49
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Those Poland topics are always getting so hot. And I have no idea why. My apologies if I participated in it going this way.

    Quark: Indeed a preview of Poland in SS6.0 would be nice. Now it's hard to work out anything since we don't really know what changes 6.0 introduces. There are rumours of new units and maybe even provinces but nobody seems to know for sure. So thanks for putting it up. We will move on from that to some 6.0 Poland minimod and make everybody happy.

  10. #50

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    This is still not clear. And also such unit is not suitable for medieval game. Polonized Hussars became heavy circa second half of XVIc, so pretty much when SS (that already have extended in comparison to vanilla time frame) ending.
    This is clear, unless King Kong lied to me.

    SS timeframe ends in 1560, so medium armoured Hussars more or less fits into that period. Besides, you wanted something new for polish faction, and when there`s new unit, you`re still complaining - I don`t get it.

    According to what KK told me, Heavy Hussars will be available at last level of Stables building, and after discovery of Gunpowder (so that this unit appears so late in the game as it`s possible).

  11. #51

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Quote Originally Posted by thrashing_mad View Post
    SS timeframe ends in 1560, so medium armoured Hussars more or less fits into that period.
    I would answer hardly.

    Quote Originally Posted by thrashing_mad View Post
    Besides, you wanted something new for polish faction, and when there`s new unit, you`re still complaining - I don`t get it.
    I did not ask for any Polish units, but for units which would be most historical accurate for the time frame and most suitable for repairing Polish roster. What is the profit from including Heavy Hussars (which itself is beautifully performed by your skilled hand Trashing Mad), which would be available for only the last 30 turns of the gameplay? Tiny one I answer. As everybody here underlined that key issue – the hard limit for units is painfully small and reached already, so if we have the opportunity to introduce additional unit for Poland let’s wage the choice carefully and pick most sensible solution.
    Last edited by Silesian_Noble; April 08, 2008 at 11:14 AM.

  12. #52
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Bashers need to seriously get out, the point of the thread is to offer helpful information to improve the faction.

    The decision of SS's release is up to KK and to not the researchers or you. Alot of people are grateful that he has taken time to fix some errors in the game to give a great and credible experience for all the factions.

    I admit, I've never tried Poland (cuz I can't play factions with little heavy infs) definitely agree that the Lithuanian units for Poland should be removed and it would be nice to see some proper Eastern European heavy infs... but they still get that new Swordsmen unit, which looks great.

  13. #53

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    I would like to see any changes made that would make for a better game experience. As it stands in 5.1 poland is rather boring, so i am in agreeance with this threads topic starter.
    ...longbows, in skilled hands, could reach further than trebuchets...

  14. #54

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    tbh i find england france hre boring

    why? to many units and so easy to play

  15. #55

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Quote Originally Posted by Silesian_Noble View Post
    I would answer hardly.


    I did not ask for any Polish units, but for units which would be most historical accurate for the time frame and most suitable for repairing Polish roster. What is the profit from including Heavy Hussars (which itself is beautifully performed by your skilled hand Trashing Mad), which would be available for only the last 30 turns of the gameplay? Tine one I answer. As everybody here underlined that key issue – the hard limit for units is painfully small and reached already, so if we have the opportunity to introduce additional unit for Poland let’s wage the choice carefully and pick most sensible solution.
    Well, you`re right - I would gladly trade those Heavy Hussars for some new Early or High Era units. But since there are no such new models yet, Heavy Hussars are better than nothing, isn`t?

    I think that 'Drużyna' unit could be added without messing with model limit, by using Kievan/Novgorodian counterpart with new textures - what do you think?

  16. #56

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Have to go out, but this is where I have got to, will update later



    Units and Map
    Last edited by Quark; April 08, 2008 at 05:16 PM.

  17. #57
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    One change I'd make would be getting rid of Lithuanian Archers and adding good top-tier long-range Crossbows instead of them.

  18. #58
    The King Of Peasants's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Its annoying now that all the balance of the original game (which wasn't that balanced) is gone factions like england, the hre, france, spain, the ere and maybe egypt are now much more powerful then factions like poland that have lost units. The one cool unique unit they used to have was the dismounted lithuanian cav a good light inf/archer hybrid. but now the roster is a basic version of the hre or france. And the unit limit is reached. I don't think much can be added though as they only have 7 unique units. What could be done is take out polish knights and just give them noble knights with the same skin then add a few infantry maybe a dismounted lithuanian cav type unit, dismounted strelczy as the crossbow/axe/shield could make for a very cool unit and some type of javelin/heavy inf hybrid to replace the dismounted polish nobles. Then all that would be needed is maybe give them pavises. And that would be a nasty roster!
    Last edited by The King Of Peasants; April 08, 2008 at 01:16 PM.

  19. #59
    gracul's Avatar 404 Not Found
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    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    that halberd unit in Quark's rooster is actually a handgunner.

  20. #60

    Default Re: A call to improve Poland in SS (6.x maybe?) - heavy materials included.

    Just to point out. Polands unique units are:

    Dismounted Polish Nobles
    Dismounted Polish Knights
    Polish Nobles
    Polish Knights
    Strzelcy
    Polish Guard
    Polish Retainers

    This gives Poland 7 unique units which can be directly worked with to change to units you want. You can of course add units that already exist to the faction, or try to cut out units from other factions to add a few units to Poland, but these are the 7 that you could directly work with.

    You might notice that 5 of those 7 units are Cavalry, so it might make sense to eliminate one cavalry unit in favor of Infantry, and possibly remove Lith Archers and replace them with Crossbowmen (such as those found on the Denmark roster).

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