unit stats/charge

[philip w.]

After playing some factions i have a question on the unit stats especially the charge.
In my opinion your units are really great and reflect well the time.
But at some i just dont undestand the charge:
For example the charge of the gallic light cavalry from the western rebels is 11.
the shola palatinas charge armed with spears is only 2, the clibinariis armed with lances only 6.
The foederati noble cavalry armed with swords is 6 that fits i think.
The ostrogoth infantrys charge is too overpowered there a charges from 8 (hevy spear) to 12 (saio infantry).
i think high infantry charges should only be for spear elite units (5-6) and axes. The elite status of the saio infantry is reflected by attack/defence theres no need for such an overpowered charge.
Did you mistake the saio cavalra stats with the infantry stats?
In general i think cavalry should have because of its speed/arms/weight the bigger charge than infantry.
In most cases charge is what cavalry is for.

Why is the weapon type of some close combat types missle? (for example limitanei)

There are many other examples bt i just wanted to mention some.

[Riothamus]

After playing some factions i have a question on the unit stats especially the charge.
There are many other examples bt i just wanted to mention some.

Yes..was going to work on it but it unfortunately fell through the cracks and I forgot to do it for the fixes. If you want and have the time make a list of the changes you deem necessary and we will go over it.

Why is the weapon type of some close combat types missle? (for example limitanei)
There are many other examples bt i just wanted to mention some.

I think this is standard for the limitanei with the javelin or the comitatenses with the pilum. Its used as the primary weapon for its the weapon used first then off course to the sword. It may be a models make up..the way model units are made this way. Its also defined as a missle weapon.

[beatoangelico]

you have to bear in mind that the displayed charge value for units with bows or javelins is not the correct one, because the engine uses the charge for the melee weapon but always displays the charge of the primary weapon, and javelins/bows must always be primary weapons (although this is easily fixable by making the 2 charge values the same)

[philip w.]

Because i have got only little time i will begin with a list for the romans

Unit changes to discuss, just my opinion its riothamus baby


WRE:

Cohortis vegilium: decrease charge to 2
Lanciarii: ad bonus fighting cavalry, increase charge a little bit, (to 3-4) ad can make shield wall
Foederati cavalry: increase charge because of carrying spears (to 4-6)
Eqites promoti: increase charge to 4-5.
Iron dragons: increase charge a lot because of carrying lances and being elite, perhaps up to 12-14, give them an eagle and let them frighten infanty, the 2 last points fit here bette than at the eqites scutarii. Delte the description that the horse is armoured.
Imperial german guard: increase charge 8-12
Clibinarii: see iron dragons, 12-14
Canditati increase charge to 10

Again: I don’t undestand why there are ctd with the unit, the equites scutarii and the imnperial gaulish guard has got the same texture and theres no problem, somehow the file or the loading path must be corrupt.


WRRebels same as WRE
Gallic cavalry: decrease charge to 5-6
Rherel: decraese charge to 4-5


ERE: same as WRE

Eqites dalmatii: increase charge to 6, they carry spears
Clibinarii of the ERE: bugged unit, they carry swords, but when firing missles they carry lances, give them back the lances for charge, and increase the charge to 12-14
Scholae clibinarii palatinae: increase charge to 13-15, increase armour al little at least to 36, give them an eagle and let them scare infantry.

Roman Britones same as WRE

Marca Dumonyna: increase charge to 10
Equites stablesiana good stats fits well

[Riothamus]

you have to bear in mind that the displayed charge value for units with bows or javelins is not the correct one, because the engine uses the charge for the melee weapon but always displays the charge of the primary weapon, and javelins/bows must always be primary weapons (although this is easily fixable by making the 2 charge values the same)

Thanks beatoangelico, This was hepful



Hi philip w.

This morning I worked on the unit charge bonus through the melee weapon and went right through all the units because almost 50 to 70% of the units needed corrections with this. Some were decreased like the cohort but overall most were increased. Cavalry units with spears had the most dramatic increases. They are higher then the units you posted, I tried to proportion it evenly from top to bottom through out the units. I'll send you a copy to see what you think. I may have to reduce cavalry primary attack from the melee weapon for the melee charge bonus will have a significant impact in battles. It would create a realistic way of using heavy cavalry...to charge then withdraw and then to charge again and so on. Thanks for some of these ideas

The equites scutarii is ctd on you??

[philip w.]

Hi Riothamus, no, no ctd with the scutarii and with the gaulish imperial guard, only with the candidati.
Send me the list i will look over it.
But please dont do it like the rtr mod where the charge was extrem high and there was nearly no mellee atack with cavalry.
A warrior on a horse with a sword usaually has a bonus to a swordsman without a horse. The cavalry units only with spears should have a low melee attack, but the elite units that carry lances/spears for charge and swords for close combat should have a high melee atack too.
Also the charge for infantry should be much lower than that of cavalry.
I would think of a maximum charge for infantry of 6-7 and this only if carrying special weapons like big armour piercing axes or two handed swords.

[Riothamus]

Hi Riothamus, no, no ctd with the scutarii and with the gaulish imperial guard, only with the candidati.
Send me the list i will look over it.
But please dont do it like the rtr mod where the charge was extrem high and there was nearly no mellee atack with cavalry.
A warrior on a horse with a sword usaually has a bonus to a swordsman without a horse. The cavalry units only with spears should have a low melee attack, but the elite units that carry lances/spears for charge and swords for close combat should have a high melee atack too.
Also the charge for infantry should be much lower than that of cavalry.
I would think of a maximum charge for infantry of 6-7 and this only if carrying special weapons like big armour piercing axes or two handed swords.

I have increased some of the spear bonuses for the spearmen and also what I can do is give some of the other infantry units, like some heavy infantry some kind of mount effect..Arthurian Total war does this. Maybe this will be enough so that I will have to do very little to the Cavalry melee attack.

[Hound of Ulster]

the Zheyadan seem kind of weak to me, while the Gyan-Avspar don't have much staying power.

[Quinn Inuit]

Well, stirrups were in use by this point, so I think it's reasonable to give cavalry substantially higher charge bonuses and decent attack stats. In the period I'm modding, I've given most heavy spear cav charge bonuses in the mid-20s, but attacks of only 7-9. This replicates the low staying power of stirrup-less heavy cav, but their shock power should be undeniable.

[beatoangelico]

stirrups in the V century? :hmmm:

[Riothamus]

the Zheyadan seem kind of weak to me, while the Gyan-Avspar don't have much staying power.

I'll take a look at em -thanks

Well, stirrups were in use by this point, so I think it's reasonable to give cavalry substantially higher charge bonuses and decent attack stats. In the period I'm modding, I've given most heavy spear cav charge bonuses in the mid-20s, but attacks of only 7-9. This replicates the low staying power of stirrup-less heavy cav, but their shock power should be undeniable.

I don't think the stirrups were commonly used during the 5th century by most of the factions represented in the game. But they were possibly in use on the Asian steppes.(IBFD and the Julian mods focus more on the Asian factions) The saddle with high pommel and the raised cantle put in use may have had an impact on the 5th century lancers but the stirrup to my knowledge wasn't utilized by the Romans or the Germanic barbarians just yet. It is an interesting topic.

Just to note I made changes to all the custom battles costs..they were to say the least ..in need of a fixing....

[Quinn Inuit]

Hmmm, I thought the stirrups were in use by then, but I did some more research and you're probably right. My bad.

[philip w.]

As far as i know belisar adopted it fom the nomadic tribes, before the V century it was not in common use in the roman world.
And it was invented in the III century by the skythians (in its leather form)

[philip w.]

Just in work with the lists we talked about riothamus, but one thing i wanted to mention before i forget about it.
Not my idea, read it in the chivalry forum(see there for further detail).

Guys, shiltrom and shieldwall aren't features that help the AI, it gives rather disadvantages to the AI, because it cannot handle it properly, that's the main reason why they aren't in the mod.

(Chivalry is not made to realise any possible technical feature as content).

... we aim to increase the players challenge and to help the ai where possible.

- I don't like it, if an ai unit creates shiltrom only because it "sees" cavalry, stays in this formation, and the player can **** them up with range units or can simply ignore this fix unit until all other ai units are considered, and then going back to the shiltrom unit to slaughter them.

- Shieldwall is very inflexible, the ai is far more vulnerable if attacked and ie. encirlced. And i believe it is also earlier exhausted.

Besides this, shieldwall is a (imo. anyway superflouos) performance resource-eater.

Plus, for the medieval battlefields in our mod not very historical accurate.

Those are indeed reasons for me to not include these formations.

But to help the ai perhaps its a good idea to remove shiltrom, i often made the experience too, that the spears form it and i can shoot them up, they never made it when there was use for it.

[Riothamus]

Just in work with the lists we talked about riothamus, but one thing i wanted to mention before i forget about it.
Not my idea, read it in the chivalry forum(see there for further detail).





But to help the ai perhaps its a good idea to remove shiltrom, i often made the experience too, that the spears form it and i can shoot them up, they never made it when there was use for it.

Sounds like a good idea..I'll remove the schiltrom. Put the shield wall in its place. Its too bad the Ai does not use these effectively.

[philip w.]

Perhaps better to remove it and not to give shield wall instead because the ai is to dump to use it. I dont know.

[Riothamus]

Perhaps better to remove it and not to give shield wall instead because the ai is to dump to use it. I dont know.

Haaa ya....True. I want although to give the human player the option of using it.

I just modded something that will not effect well know Roman lands..Once a player once again establishes Romes prior empire, (1st 2end century) It will be a doubly hard quest to conquer anything outside of it. Lands will uprise and rebell..It will take time and resources to do it but the challenge is its a risk that might end up weakening the empire and possibly leading to a collapse

[Quinn Inuit]

FWIW, I haven't seen the AI do badly with shield wall, and a lot of units in my mod have it (it's a more accurate representation of the Greek phalanx than "phalanx", which is more Macedonian).

[Riothamus]

FWIW, I haven't seen the AI do badly with shield wall, and a lot of units in my mod have it (it's a more accurate representation of the Greek phalanx than "phalanx", which is more Macedonian).

I get a dark age feeling from the shield wall too..To me it gives some barbarian flavor to the game.

[philip w.]

Like it too, but is there a possibility that the units stay calm and are not always moving?