PRO DEO ET REGE Faction Research Thread: Basileia tōn Rōmaiōn

[Socal_infidel]

Basileia tōn Rōmaiōn: Research Thread

Since I have problems organizing things, opening a thread devoted to consolidating research on the Byzantines. As you may or may not know, they're likely to get a make-over in PDER 2.0 since my own PDER 1.0 Roman campaign was cut short by my dissatisfaction with their roster.

If you have anything to add, by all means please do so...

This is a rough draft of their roster:

BARRACKS (infantry and archers)

AOR Barracks - various units depending on region
Tier 1 - Peltastai (unarmoured javelinmen); Toxotai (unarmored archers)
Tier 2 - Kontaratoi Spearmen (unarmored spearmen)
Tier 3 - Skoutatoi Spearmen (armored spearmen); Skoutatoi Swordsmen (armored swordsmen)
Tier 4 - Mourtartoi Heavy Archers (armored archer/swordsmen); Menavlatoi Heavy Spearmen(?) (armored pikemen/heavy spearmen)
Tier 5 - Spatharioi Swordsmen (heavily armored swordsmen); Varangian Guard

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

STABLES

AOR Stables - various units depending on region (mainly horsearchers, e.g. Magyar Cavalry, Turcomans, Turcopoles, Cumans, Pechenegs, Kypchaks)
Tier 1 - Trapezitai Javelin Cavalry (unarmored javelin cavalry)
Tier 2 - Akritai Light Cavalry (light armored light cavalry)
Tier 3 - Kavallarioi Toxotai (armored horse archer)
Tier 4 - Pronoiarioi Lancers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Upgrade

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Tier 5 - Scholarioi Heavy Lancers

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[AnthoniusII]

Add this under the latins

Βασιλεια των Ρωμαιων

It is in greek!

[AnthoniusII]

I insist the existance of kavalarioi Loricatoi(we can not have only the half unit available)!
Add Gasmouloi crossbowmen(like the mercs)in the ports!

[Socal_infidel]

Don't mind me, in the sake of having everything in one place for reference, I'm adding reference materials here for various units.

References for Pronoiarioi Lancers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

References for Scholarioi Heavy Lancers

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[Socal_infidel]

I insist the existance of kavalarioi Loricatoi(we can not have only the half unit available)!
Add Gasmouloi crossbowmen(like the mercs)in the ports!

Were I to do this, I would insist on making them available at 4th tier after their horse archer counterpart. I really don't want them to have any access to any sort of medium/heavy cavalry until the next to last tier. Until then Western mercs.

And the only reason I'm considering it is because I'm thinking of making the Pronoiarioilancers only available after a certain date, and the roster would need a unit available at that level until that date.

But yeah, no native medium/heavy cavalry until the next to last stable.

[AnthoniusII]

What about Gasmouloi?

[Socal_infidel]

What about Gasmouloi?

There's plenty of merc crossbowmen available. Don't see the need to give the Romans a native x-bow unit.

One of the few good things about modding primarily by yourself is that you get to make the final decisions on everything...

I'm gonna stick fairly close to the roster I posted. I might change one or two things around, but that's basically it. You have to remember this whole thing developed because I essentially was dissatisfied with my own Roman campaign on PDER 1.0. I wasn't intending to redo the whole roster, just a few things.

[AnthoniusII]

Any way even with this roster the mod will have the most realistic roman one in all the existing mods!
I am waiting to test it!

[Socal_infidel]

Any way even with this roster the mod will have the most realistic roman one in all the existing mods!
I am waiting to test it!

Thanks! I've had an expert helping me with my roster!

Right now, I'm leaning towards one of a couple of things:

1] Adding the Kavallarioi Medium Lancer as a 4th tier unit. I don't like the idea of breaking it and the Kavallarioi Toxotai apart recruitment-wise, but I'm really thinking the Pronoiarioi should be restricted by an era-requirement (mid-13th century?). Which would be good because then the Romans would really be reliant on Western mercs for heavy cavalry in the early-going, since the Pronoia wouldn't be available until much later and the Scholarioi would be extremely rare and have low replenishment....and a medium lancer would be their best native option besides that.

I had a 2] but I like my 1] better for now! That option would really force the Romans to rely on Western merc heavy cavalry which is what I have in mind...

[Emperor Basil]

Right now, I'm leaning towards one of a couple of things:

1] Adding the Kavallarioi Medium Lancer as a 4th tier unit. I don't like the idea of breaking it and the Kavallarioi Toxotai apart recruitment-wise, but I'm really thinking the Pronoiarioi should be restricted by an era-requirement (mid-13th century?). Which would be good because then the Romans would really be reliant on Western mercs for heavy cavalry in the early-going, since the Pronoia wouldn't be available until much later and the Scholarioi would be extremely rare and have low replenishment....and a medium lancer would be their best native option besides that.

I had a 2] but I like my 1] better for now! That option would really force the Romans to rely on Western merc heavy cavalry which is what I have in mind...

I like the idea that the Byzantines have to rely on western mercs early on . If 2] has no chance of the Byzantines being able to recruit their own decent heavy cavalry then I disagree. Had the BE not been in slow decline throughout most of the Middle Ages then it would be likely a decent native heavy cavalry unit would have been created.

[Socal_infidel]

I like the idea that the Byzantines have to rely on western mercs early on . If 2] has no chance of the Byzantines being able to recruit their own decent heavy cavalry then I disagree. Had the BE not been in slow decline throughout most of the Middle Ages then it would be likely a decent native heavy cavalry unit would have been created.

Yeah, that's the idea with the Pronoia heavy cavalry. By making it available only after a certain date we a] force the Byz to rely on Western mercs and b] simulate their adoption of their own native heavy cavalry unit.

So they'll have heavy cav (purty ones at that pronoia base model is already done), they will just have to wait for them or in the case of the Scholarioi, not be able to spam them. The Scholarioi will be elite, there will just not be an abundance of them around because of small recruitment pool, long recruitment times and low replenishment rates.

[Ahiga]

To what you said in the previous topic:

And even if history is fudged a little, I'm not sure of the purpose for such a unit against the Rum Turks. Apparently, they either used a pike, polearm or really heavy spear (or javelin as you guys have them) and were employed as an anti-eastern kataphract/super heavy cav unit. Their enemy at this time however are lightly armoured horse archers. What good would they be against that?

Well, some important notes on the Turks:

Whereas Fatimid cavalry largely fought with spear and sword, the first wave of Seljuk Turkish invaders relied on Central Asian horse-archery tactics of dispersal and harassment. Within two generations the Seljuk professional cavalry, though not the Turkoman tribal warriors, had largely reverted to a long-established Middle Eastern tradition of horse arhcery, in which men shot volleys as close packed units, often at rest. This system needed fewer spare horses and permitted the use of heavier armour. By the 12th and 13th century it seems that even in strongly Turkish areas like Azerbaijan and Anatolia the professional cavalry elite relied as much on spears, swords, maces, and javelins as on archery

Osprey book Saracen Faris.

Muslim troops facing the Byzantines along their mountainous frontier of Eastern Anatolia and Armenia had much in common with their foes, with both making great use of mail and lamellar armor.

Armies of Islam 7th to 11th century, Azerbaijanyi Infantryman 10th century.

The Akritiai guys you've mentioned were probably the ones designated to do the bulk of the fighting with Tribal Turcomans. In the case of facing the professional forces of the Rum turks, I could see such anti eastern kataphract/heavy cavalry infantry being of use. I personally think their Infantry roster is quite good already, however, such a unit may well be overkill especially when they already have a high class Hybrid. From a gameplay perspective, it'd be better for Armenia or Georgia to get a hybrid javelineer.

Also, I hope you do the Fatimids in the future.

[AnthoniusII]

@Socal_infidel

I support this kind of thinking!Proniars developted in the late 13th century!
A nice release(event)date for pronoiars would be 1290-1300!

[Lord_Phan]

I'd like to see at least 1 gunpowder unit for the factions such as East Rome that don't have any. After all, them not having any is due to the circumstances that occured in real history(gradual collapse of the empire, policies of various emperors etc.) Maybe if certain events happen they could get access to a non-historical gunpowder unit based on how they might have created it had they not stagnated.

Just a suggestion.

[JayCee]

I'd like to see at least 1 gunpowder unit for the factions such as East Rome that don't have any. After all, them not having any is due to the circumstances that occured in real history(gradual collapse of the empire, policies of various emperors etc.) Maybe if certain events happen they could get access to a non-historical gunpowder unit based on how they might have created it had they not stagnated.

Just a suggestion.

I agree with this. IMO, it's horribly unrealistic to think that, had the Byzantines (or the other "weak later units" factions) still been a major force in the late medieval period, they wouldn't have adopted gunpoweder troops to a much greater extent. I wouldn't suggest they get any unique ones like the Jannissaries, but they should get access to the generic ones, as well as the later artillery.

[AnthoniusII]

Handunners could add in the empire's roster through the Hetairiae merc system like the latinicon is!
In reality almost all the handgunners is service were italian mercs!

[Emperor Basil]

Here are some more pictures if you want them although they're probably not much use.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one I just put in because it's quite a cool picture.

[B. Ward]

need help socal let me know, i may be able to spare some time to remodel a unit or two for you

[Socal_infidel]

The Akritiai guys you've mentioned were probably the ones designated to do the bulk of the fighting with Tribal Turcomans. In the case of facing the professional forces of the Rum turks, I could see such anti eastern kataphract/heavy cavalry infantry being of use. I personally think their Infantry roster is quite good already, however, such a unit may well be overkill especially when they already have a high class Hybrid. From a gameplay perspective, it'd be better for Armenia or Georgia to get a hybrid javelineer.

Also, I hope you do the Fatimids in the future.

Thanks, yeah at the moment I'm leaning towards not including the menalavtoi spear/pike guy. Because as you mention, I don't really want them to have super-heavy Roman infantry and a heavy spearmen unit might be overkill, indeed.

Here are some more pictures if you want them although they're probably not much use.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

This one I just put in because it's quite a cool picture.

No these are quite welcome. The last one is especially nice!

need help socal let me know, i may be able to spare some time to remodel a unit or two for you

That's an awesome offer. I just may have to take you up on it!

[Socal_infidel]

My word! What a fascinating little site! Cheerio!