People will be annoyed either way.
Debating which factions should be in or out is appropriate for this mod, due to it's massive popularity, and King Kongs approach to modding. KK is very open to suggestions in general, and as such you see many people developing their own mini-mods for SS done with great encouragement from KK himself (another reason SS is so popular). He even provides a stickied list of other peoples work....
Many people want to play their ancestral faction, or play against this or that faction to make their personal games on their favorite mod more fun and more interesting, so it is natural to debate which factions should be included when the limit is so low.
I personally think CA did this on purpose so they could get ongoing market research. Think about it, it would not have been terribly difficult from a programming standpoint to allow an upper limit of 100 factions. So on top of having passionate people driven to create their own mods based on the faction they love, CA gets to see which mods are most popular based partly on which factions they have, and features they hilite. Great market info for for future TW games....
Anyhow, you don't see King Kong mucking around in these threads, but I am sure he reads them, and sees the passionate posts, and interesting arguments made by everyone. I for one, love these threads... their have been a lot of great points made, one that even changed my own mind on Ireland. Also a couple of great poems I have never seen before, and don't think I would have ever seen had this thread not existed....
So I say, let the debate rage on...
Last edited by TzuDevil; March 15, 2008 at 02:12 PM.
Wir können nicht das Unmögliche erreichen, wenn es von uns nicht gefordert wird.
Agreed, merge with Jerusalem.The Templars need to go - IMHO. They have no historical basis.
Already getting one. I'd rather see another faction up north.I would rather see another Islamic faction.
It's redundant to write your username at the end of your post,
if I wanted to see your name I'd look to the left of my screen.
To hell with new factions, I say!
Rather, this time spent on developing them, should be spent on making the map as lifelike as possible, with realistic rivers & lakes, borders that follow logical natural boundaries as wide rivers, mountain ranges and so on. Creating more strategic places & chokepoints, for more fun battles. Reducing vartical elevation in battle map, which cause some ridiculous, Olympus-Mons-terrain.
Also, more and historicaly accurate provinces. I've seen bits & pieces of 6.0 map, and it looks good, but it can always be better.
No more provinces - limit is reached... =\
My wish is that they keep Ireland, IF, and only if some work is put into it. The straight copy/paste effect from kingdoms it too obvious, and the unit lists are too unhistorical.
It is the same problem with Norway and Kingdom of Jerusalem really. These factions should get a bit of a overhaul to add the historical realism and balance required for the grand campaign.
And they likely will after the release of 6.0. 5.0 was slightly rushed to get a Kingdoms version, so there was a simple port, and then 6.0 has focused on adding the Kwarezm and Cuman factions.
I myself am for keeping Ireland (for obvious reasons), but possibly be persuaded by a really really good alternative (none of the 'Ireland is pointless, add Flanders' stuff though).
And as Quark said (here or another thread, don't remember), keep Knights Templar...forever.
sig by y2day
The templars are an interesting faction, but with the current roster and appearance of them I just dont feel like playing them. They still need some work done on them, same for jerusalem.
Last edited by Echad; March 16, 2008 at 10:39 AM.
I'd say merge KOJ with Templars and get rid of one of the provinces in the holy land (like Ascalon, maybe), remove one city from Ireland and remove that faction, consider removing the Crown of Aragon (not gonna happen, I know, but Spain and Aragon are so similar, it almost hurts), add a faction in the North East somewhere near Novogord/Kiev.
Oh, and remove the Byzantine Empire. No one likes it anyway...
(Disclaimer: Warning, humor is located within this post. For the assistance of excitable forum goers, the humor is bolded. Thank-you.)
it'll be hard pressed to get rid of the templars, as it was the first new faction created and basis behind the stainless steel series. i'm not saying who stays or who goes...that's not up to me and i'll play my share of the mod regardless as i support kk and all his hard work.
Aragon actually joined the crusade against the moors, supported their allies in the Crusade in Toulouse area (can't remember its name)...which they lost. This forced them to expand south since the could not expand north and so they conquered Valencia. Because of Castille they were forced to expand towards the Mediterranean and they conquered the Balearic islands, Southern italy and sicily and even went to conquer Athens for a period of time
So they were more important
just my 2 cents
timurids are replaced by Kwazarizma??? or whateva you call them
I'm pretty sure the Timurids are still in-game. The Aztecs were removed and the Cumans and Kwarezm added to bring us to the full faction limit.
sig by y2day
They participated in the reconquista period and assisted Castile several times, also, their economical importance in the atlantic trade routes was crucial, including even crutially contributing with the survival of England and even ending blockades in the coast of england, third in terms of naval importance by the 14th century they already had one of the most advanced and largest fleets.well i believe portugal would be a preferred option. They really didn't have much if any impact on the Medieval times. They didn't even participate in the crusade against the moors in Spain. They are only there because they had a huge impact in the colonial times, which CA placed mainly because they had the Americas. But since SS 6.0 does no have the Americas i find them pointless to have in the game.
Economically Portugal was a faction that despite being in the extreme west of Europe, was a main trade atlantic route and was very advanced economically from the overhaul economical structures and systems available, to having cities such as Lisbon being richer and larger than London for instance and in being one of the most if not the most important trade route in atlantic europe. By the mid/end 15th century (aproximantely end of the game) they already were the richest nation in Europe.
There is little or no reason for them to be out and there are many other factions that don't even have the importance Portugal had during this period be it economically or in terms of historical importance and yet no one suggests they should be removed. No offense intended, but it you lack the necessary knowledge then please don't just state they should be removed, if you knew Portuguese history then you would know they were important during medieval times, both regionally (Iberia) and also in medieval european history, later on from the 14th century onwards they were crucial in several events of european history, including the 100 years war.
In shory, the only thing I'm asking is that don't suggest things that require knowledge you don't have. There are already several existing factions in the mod had overhaul less impact than Portugal in medieval history, be it economically, naval influence, or even militarely and I'm not suggesting they should be removed in any way, even if I lack speciffic knowledge about them.
C.A. included Portugal from the start because of their already overhaul very significant importance in medieval history before the 14th century and crucial important from the 14th century onwards.
Last edited by numerosdecimus; March 20, 2008 at 12:13 PM.
Sorry, i think you might have misinterpreted my post, which is actually my fault for not expressing myself too well.
The point i was trying to make is not that Portugal were unimportant in the medieval ages, but really that compared to Aragon if, like JMSlayer said, that Aragon should be removed then i was just suggesting that imho Portugal should be removed before them because they did not have such an impact compared to the Crown of Aragon.
We have to remember that Portugal was a newly independent kingdom from the Kingdom of Leon so it was relatively unimportant compared to others like the Kingdom of Castile. Yes Aragon was also relatively unimportant too at that time but what im trying to say is that Aragon's history is more expansive, diverse and interactive compared to portugal which yes they did contribute a lot in the reconquista but this was also done by Aragon.....they only "beat" Aragon in the discovering period.
You say that they were economically important and im not disputing that, in fact i agree since they were had the benefits of the Mediterranean and Hanseatic League trade. i just still think that Aragon, with a monopoly in the Mediterranean were more important than their counterparts.
The truth is that game wise, Portugal seem to be there for the Americas and since SS 6.0 doesn't have it anymore then it just seems pointless. Im pretty sure that if there had been no americas then they would have chosen Aragon instead. Their greatness commences in the time of discovery and by the time this occurs the game is about to finish.
Lastly i'm not one off those people who post something without a clue to history. I love and study history every day and i can guarantee you that i do know my history. I'm not perfect but i make sure that what i write i am positive about. When i said they didn't have an impact on Medieval world i meant really that their achievements in medieval times weren't that good compared to Aragon.
Hey, I'm new to the mod (just got M2TW last week) and I really love it, without a doubt an immeasurable improvement over vanilla, and a truly amazing piece of work! On the topic of this thread:
- Ireland is kind of pointless (and I'm part Irish); it was a non-expansionist, 'minding-its-own-business' nation that didn't impact anything. I would like to see it replaced with Georgia or another Muslim faction or something else; possibly Sweden? Although, if this was done the 'rebel' Irish settlements should be tough to capture, so that Scotland or England doesn't just blitz Ireland. It might also be a good idea to remove one of the Irish regions if the faction is removed, to make the island a bit less valuable.
- I tend to agree that the Templars don't really need to be a faction (they could be a Guild though). The only Order that really achieved nation-state status was the Teutonic Knights, who are already in the game.
- I also agree with Lord Calidor that the map, while good, could use more work. I'm speaking of the 6.0 map as seen in the previews -- the scale is excellent, the geography tends to be very good, but it needs more forests, hills, and rivers, to 'fill it out'. It tends to be a bit too flat and empty. Currently, I think BC has the most impressive M2TW map, I'd like to see more of that detail in the SS map...
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)