A bit too centered on western europe?

[Lupu]

I don't say i don't like the mod, i look forward to see previews later in developments, It's to late to say, but I just want to see opinions of the fanbase.
Your map is OK, but in the balcan there's only venice, hungary and ERE in the whole balkan.
The baltic is also very empty, and the middle east too, you have minor italian city states, counties and everything in western europe.
But instead of adding for example the zengids or bulgaria, you added Pisa

What do you think?

This is not ment to change anything(is to late anyway) but to see whet people mean.

[Numenor]

i think the mod should have one or two more muslim factions. a bit to the east but not THAT much.

[mayhem87]

I think there r enough mods that aims on muslim factions... Its good as it is

[Hengest]

interesting at you started a poll like this. i look forward to seeing people's responses-
We have tried to think about 'competing' with some of the other mods like Italia Invicta and Broken Crescent although it is hardly competition since those mods are specifically based on those areas and the map is bigger to make more detail. With such a large map we cannot hope to reflect as much detail as these mods, at least not in the faction list. We are trying to represent details in the tech tree, unit list, traits, ancillaries and everything else.
I am interested that you say we are not covering the Balkans- we are planning on Serbia instead of a Mulsim faction for the sake of it. We have found difficulty in rationalising another Muslim faction. The Abbasids are still being discussed, but it does not seem likely they can offer the gameplay much and historically they were not very important after 1080 (our mod start).
Zengids and Bulgaria are good suggestions though... Fancy elaborating on your arguments for those factions? Maybe you can convince us

[Lamanz]

I like some Eastern factions, but I hate how whenever a few are added, soon enough the entire mod starts wanting to push further and further east, abandoning the West wholly.

Then again, Occidental-Euro-Centric mods are hardly better, as they are liable as representing the Moors, Turks and Egyptians as dirty heathens or whatever stereotype is out there, as well as under-developing Eastern Europe.

However, AnthoniusII seems determined to get proper Byzantine representation in this mod (and hopefully with that Orthodox Europe...), and I have absolute confidence the DotS team is steering this ship on the right course.

Therefore, I voted things are better as they are.

[Lupu]

Zengids and Bulgaria were examples, are they really good Ideas, hmm, I don't know more about them than where they were, and who they were, so I can't convince anyone.
What I meant is that even the abbasid caliphate(which wasnt THAT powerless) was more important than a small italian city state like pisa or something, that was my point.

I have said it wrong, you're not underrepresenting anything, but in comparance to all those microscopic city states you have added in uorope there are other "rebel" factions that were more important(I think)

[Hengest]

I think Pisa at their height had a lot more power and importance, territory and cashflow than the Abbasids did during the mod period. Let's see what happens when the faction presentation comes out.

[AnthoniusII]

My lips are sealed...

[nnnm]

well...I don't agree with you that Pisa was more important than Abbassids. this is really exaggeration . first, about Abbasids power. compare to Zangids Abbasid were the strongest also the caliph defeated Imad Ad'Din Zangi and Zangi was coming with with allies from south Iraq and allies from Jazirah (north Iraq). But compare to great seljuks...all faction were week compare to them But the Abbasids was their neighbor. if Pisa was their neighbor they will be destroy but Abbasids were the Caliphs so what ever they always have great respect. . Baghdad suffered from great events, it been sieged three times, a great flood and great fire but it always been rebuilt though it was larger than any city in Italy. Abbasids were very wealthy, when sultan muhammad of great Seljuk's besieged Baghdad the vizier give the people for each injury in their body a dinar in a city it's population about a million, Maybe all Italy was near million. Abbasid were able to made a new army from Abbasid treasure for Sulayman sultan muhammad's brother after the siege though he was defeated. I think abbasid should be included not to mention that they still faction number 1 in last faction choice with 64 votes man. Though Teutonic Order are the most popular but it's clear that there big free area like vanilla in the east.

[ivan_the_terrible]

I'm not sure what exactly you mean by "underdeveloping the eastern map".

If you mean Eastern Europe, than thats certainly not the case. We are adding 4 new factions to eastern europe (Bohemia, Serbia, Lithuania and Kiev), or 5 if you count Sweden.

In terms of non-european east, we are adding Cilician Armenia and Georgia.

If you meant Muslim factions - thats what you should have specified
But realistically, the only Muslim faction we could add is we separated Ottoman Turks from Seljuk Turks. We could in theory add Abbasids instead of Pisa (you do have a point about these factions' relative importance). However, there are other factors besides "importance" to consider. The Abbasids, by this time were largely under the Seljuk thumb, and even as a regional power, they are rather confined on our map. Compare this to Pisa, who occupy the Italian Peninsula - a location central to out mod.

In other words, who is most likely to get in touch with Abbasid during the campaign? The answer is Egypt, Seljuks and possibly Armenia and Georgia (unlikely). On the othe hand, who is likely to come into contact with Pisa? Venice, Sicily, France, Holy Roman Empire and Papal States are all in direct contact from the start. There is also a relatively strong possobility for Castille, Eastern Roman Empire and Moors.

So you see, even though Abbasids may have been mor 'important' than Pisa if compared directly, they are not as important for our mod.

Hope this makes sense, and please note this isnt necessarily the team's official point of view. I just thought I would explain the way I see things.

[AnthoniusII]

The "last"faction issue is not end yet...So all factions and alternatives are equaly important....:hmmm:

[Alkidas]

People's arguments here tend to stress political and military significance. It's sound, since this is a wargame, but to me important matter to consider regarding factions is also their cultural and religious variety and significance. I think this was one of the things that made EB such a fascinating mod.

[Hengest]

Good point, I suppose it things like that that really gives a faction playability.

[Basileos]

i completely agree with alkidas.i like that basileia tw is going to use art etc for loading screens, and BC offers some cultural historical buildings.i think that our mod realy needs such things (more then other mods if possible)

[Lupu]

There wasnt much cultural variety in western europe, everyone was listening to the pope and the feudal system was the most common managemnt form(of course much more, but all was pretty much the same), while adding for example abbasids would make variety.

[Basileos]

well there actually was.celtic (irish,wales scottish,...)art differed very much of english art and culture.french art differed of flemish art and culture and german and french art differed much of the spanish and italian art and culture.you're ofcourse right about abbasids.if we add them,a very rich and high standing culture indeed,we would have much more variety,but there is always something that differs of their neighhbours,and that difference doesn't always have to be small.but i hope that this issue will be discussed later maybe.

[Domnul Ceaşcă]

It would be more fun if you would add Serbia, Wallachia, Bulgaria...

[Basileos]

it would be more fun to add as many factions as possible but unfortunately there is a faction limit of 30 factions ...

[thelonius viking]

IMO If the start date is 1080, then saying the Abbasids aren't a viable option because of their lack of significance later in history doesn't quite make sense. Isn't one of the joys of playing TW is seeing how things change when history is re-written? And there are endless catholic factions. Adding another muslim faftion adds so much more conflict and variety to the middle east, as opposed to another of like 5 Italian city states.

[King Yngvar]

To those that want more of the east, go play BC!

I for one welcome a bigger western Europe. The fact that both Norway, Denmark and Sweden is included is good enough for me.