BC: Regions and Provinces Project

**notenome** · March 05, 2008, 09:11 AM

Im afraid there is a city called Diyarbakir (Or Deyarbakir, depending on spelling)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diyarbakir

It is the Second largest city in south eastern Anatolia

In 639 the city was captured by the Arab armies of Islam and it remained in Arab hands until the Kurdish dynasty of Marwanid ruled the area during the 10th and 11th centuries CE. After the Battle of Manzikert in 1085, the city came under the rule of the Mardin branch of Oghuz Turks and then the Anatolian Turkish Beylik of Artuklu

Also for kicks/flavour, the city apparently was very well defended, so maybe it could get stone walls from the get go/buffed up garrison.

The city walls - Diyarbakır is surrounded by an intact, dramatic set of high walls of black basalt forming a 5.5 km (3.4 mi) circle around the old city. There are four gates into the old city and 82 watch-towers on the walls, which were built in antiquity, restored and extended by the Roman emperor Constantine in 349.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**~~Miraj~~** · March 05, 2008, 11:03 AM

I think Nnnm meant there was no city called Diyabakir back during medieval times. Which seems to be correct as the modern day city of "Diyarbakir" was in fact originally called "Amid" or "Amida".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banu_bakr
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amid
It was also called Tigranakert by the Armenians during the height of their ancient empire.

Originally Posted by Wiki

Ottoman Turkish: Diyâr-i Bekr دیاربکر 'land of the Bekr' as derived from Arabic; Kurdish Amed; Syriac ܐܡܝܕ Āmîḏ; Greek Ἄμιδα Amida; Armenian Ամիդ Amid)

Also most contemporary medieval sources that mention this area never speak of a city called "Diyabakir" but most Islamic and Christian sources refer to Amid or Amida. I think it makes sense to rename the city Amid instead of Diyarbakir.

**IrAr** · March 05, 2008, 06:07 PM

Actually, Tigranakert was nearby, but not actually Amid.
Yeah, Amid is quite an ancient city.

**Rex Inanimatus** · March 05, 2008, 06:38 PM

Originally Posted by nnnm

Hi mirage41

"ma wara an-nahr" means "what after the river" that is more known as Transoxsonia. there is river cross east edges of Khorssan "Oxus River" [in Arabic Jayhon river] what after it is known as "ma wara an-nahr" in arabic source. Though Samar'Qand in "ma wara an-nahr" or Transoxsonia region seljuks refer to it as Khorssan and only the land which they took it from the Kara Khitai in that region they called it "ma wara an-nahr". if you want to change the names in the map it's more simple to use Transoxsonia rather than "ma wara an-nahr"

Edit: more info here

Transoxonia is the latin translation of beyond the oxus river, it dates back from Alexander times, though since this was still Persian lands no latin influence ( so why the latin name) . As further although there was no afghanistan yet all your quotes are senseleless if you use another language than persian. So if you want to go for arabic or latin names i do not mind. my oppinion was to give it proper historical names rather than popular western names.

All I tried to do make those provinces giving their proper names in their own language. All occupations of persia were no longer than a few decades. That isn't enough to destroy nomenclature which existed from the sassanid empire.

Further this is a game and to have 15 cities in Greater Khorasan asks for more digging into the matter than 2 regions. Don't think mirage want upper west,mayor east, north, south, middle etc etc Khorasan.

Wiki is nice though the world existed before wiki and so did archeology.

**AvdW** · March 07, 2008, 01:50 PM

Originally Posted by mirage41

@AvdW
Actually I think it'd be better (as whyy mentions) to use native regional names and not mention political admin like "principality" and such. Everything should basically be "something Province" and thats it.

& as a reply to Whyyy:

Allright, that would leave out the Byzanteme theme system too. It makes sense.

In which case the cities of Sinop, Amasia and Trebizond should be in the historical region of Pontus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pontus

Also, a 15th century map of Anatolia:

It's not really sharp nor very accurate, but it's an indication at least of the region names still in use in the 15th century.

**~~Miraj~~** · March 07, 2008, 03:30 PM

Updated first post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I'm also sticking to using "Region" instead of "Province". Makes little difference I think.

I could use more help with places like Syria, Egypt, Anatolia, the 'steppe', India etc.

Region names I added in are:
Oman, Armenia, Yemen, Sistan, Kerman, Jibal, Fars, West Khorasan, East Khorasan, Sindh, Gujarat, Iraq, Hijaz, Arran, Azerbaijan, Tabaristan, Gurganj, Khwarazm, Transoxania.

A HUGE thanks to Nnnm and the following map which pretty much gave me all I needed for the eastern regions, except for India and Afghanistan (most of afghanistan being in "khorasan" or Ghazna province though).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

**Astaroth** · March 07, 2008, 05:19 PM

Could you maybe exclude the "Region" thingy? It makes more sense to just say, e.g. "Cilicia" instead of "Cilicia Region".

Oh and please call "Byzantium Region" => "Thrace" or so. Makes more sense imo.

Some other ideas:

Nicaea => Bythnia, Sinop => Pontus, Trebizond => Capadocia, that city in western Anatolia (hold by the ERE [Smyrna?]) => Phrygia, Antioch => (North?) Syria, Jerusalem => Palaestine

**~~Miraj~~** · March 07, 2008, 05:48 PM

You know what, if I can get a proper provincial name different from the city name for every region of BC then I will remove that "region" adjective entirely.

Thanks for the anatolian provinces SunLight.

**Astaroth** · March 07, 2008, 06:20 PM

Sivas -> Persia, I'd suggest Balkh -> Bactria, but I dunno if calling that region Bactria was still common in the 13th century. Luxor maybe -> Upper Egypt. Possibly Cairo -> Lower Egypt, or just "Cairo". Aqaba -> Sinai

Just some more ideas

**Tadzreuli** · March 08, 2008, 03:28 AM

Originally Posted by mirage41

Updated first post:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

I'm also sticking to using "Region" instead of "Province". Makes little difference I think.

I could use more help with places like Syria, Egypt, Anatolia, the 'steppe', India etc.

Region names I added in are:
Oman, Armenia, Yemen, Sistan, Kerman, Jibal, Fars, West Khorasan, East Khorasan, Sindh, Gujarat, Iraq, Hijaz, Arran, Azerbaijan, Tabaristan, Gurganj, Khwarazm, Transoxania.

A HUGE thanks to Nnnm and the following map which pretty much gave me all I needed for the eastern regions, except for India and Afghanistan (most of afghanistan being in "khorasan" or Ghazna province though).

Spoiler Alert, click show to read:

good job, mirage, all Georgian regions names are right

**AvdW** · March 09, 2008, 07:43 AM

Jerusalem -> Judea Region

would be better than Palestine I guess, since Palestine covers nearly all of modern southern Israel.

**IrAr** · March 09, 2008, 10:42 PM

Mirage, I believe you misunderstood. Yerevan's sorrounding area was known as Yerevan, not Armenia. Armenia is the whole general area encompassing many of those regions. Now, Yerevan and the ten other marzer make up the Republic of Armenia, but that is a small partition.
And for Seleukia, Tarsus, Sis, Adana the region would be Kilikia

**Astaroth** · March 10, 2008, 09:06 AM

Well, it'a IMO best if you choose the most important/most significant region and call it the most well known name, at least in the case of "Cilicia".

**~~Miraj~~** · March 10, 2008, 11:39 AM

Thanks for pointing that IrAr, I'll fix it now.

@AvdW
The "Palestine" province is a placeholder for now. Though I will have to look into if "judea" is appropriate for a largely Muslim region, I don't think the term Judea even exists in the Arab lexicon tbh.

**IrAr** · March 10, 2008, 05:34 PM

Sunl1ght, that would mean BC would have to change nearly everything to english, which can have rather bland names for regions and doesn't have a name for others. Also, there were most likely few--as in lost Crusaders only--speakers of a language resembling modern English in Kilikia. They spoke Armenian or Greek, with the former being the majority at the time.

**Astaroth** · March 11, 2008, 08:34 AM

I don't quite understand, do you want the regions etc to have names that are basically 100% like the people who lived there at that time would have called them?!

Right, then please call Macemen in their Arabian way, call the kerak region that french name, call all roman units like agrapopukogulos xermakogupus or so, lol

**Keravnos** · March 11, 2008, 11:51 AM

Constantinople->Konstantinoupolis
Smyrna->Smyrne
Famagusta-> Leukosia

more greek names of those ERE territories will follow. Those names were used then. I am now finding maps for all of them.

I have been considering a "full helenisation" of the map from all the territories, using Alexandrian, Seleukid and Baktrian/Indogreek names for all territories of the map. Historically ERE used old names, such as "Scythians" to describe Turks and Turkomans. As such old names would be used for long gone provinces. Aka, if Baghdad were captured, the territory surrounding it would probably be called Messopotamia or Babylonia. Balkh->Baktra, Sindh-> Patalene etc.

This would be used in Kingdoms. What sayeth thee?

**~~Miraj~~** · March 11, 2008, 02:49 PM

Thats quite easily doable via scripts whenever ERE conquers those given settlements.

**IrAr** · March 13, 2008, 05:29 PM

Originally Posted by SuNL1ghT

I don't quite understand, do you want the regions etc to have names that are basically 100% like the people who lived there at that time would have called them?!

Right, then please call Macemen in their Arabian way, call the kerak region that french name, call all roman units like agrapopukogulos xermakogupus or so, lol

The units have english names to make things easier for the commander. I don't think that is such a big deal with the regions. Don't you agree?

**Astaroth** · March 14, 2008, 04:55 AM

Well, I'd like all my regions to have the "correct" English name. I'm not even a native English speaker but for me it just fits the whole "feel" of the mod, with the English city and unit names etc.

I personally would find it weird if for example the anatolian regions had the names the ERE gave them - greek names I mean.

I'd prefer commonly used names for these regions, such as Judae, Thracia, Cilicia, Nile Delta, Bactria, Armenia etc etc you get the point.

And calling regions the way the locals called them wouldnt make much sense either, since this game is a lot about conquering - e.g. if you conquer Armenia with the ERE it wouldnt make much sense if the regions were called in Armenian. However if the names were more general it would be okay imo.

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