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Thread: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

  1. #101
    Atman's Avatar Libertus
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    Icon14 Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Socal_infidel View Post
    In battle? Hmm. I'll look into it.
    Yes.

    Well, the speeds are *almost* there. Better than in many mods which have them too fast, and better than some mods that overkill it in attempt for realism and make them too slow.

    But if we take into consideration that these men have to move as a large group, they feel just a tiny bit too responsive. because, usually one of the below is the case:

    a) untrained/undidciplined soldiers. like militias. they are not so easy to command and cohesive as a unit. therefore I think they are just a tiny bit too fast.

    b) heavy equipement

    Admittedly, I'm not really a fan of the Crusader States. And I'm pretty set on my start date. But, in case you didn't know, in the next release, we're adding the County of Toulouse whose leader Raymond St. Gilles was one of the leaders of the first crusade.

    What I have in mind either formally giving them the option to give up their french possessions or encourage the players to relocate to the Holy Lands. Raymond by all accounts dreamed of establishing an "Oriental" Kingdom in the Holy Lands and swore to die there. And he did end up establishing the County of Tripoli after turning down the Jerusalem throne.

    So I think they'll give the player a viable option to establish a Crusader state.
    Great idea! I've been thinking about putting together an expedition to the east and relocating when playing european factions.

    They should have a mix of frankish and crusader units available to them in their roster. plus crusaders/knightly orders in AOR.

  2. #102

    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Socal_infidel View Post
    In battle? Hmm. I'll look into it.



    Admittedly, I'm not really a fan of the Crusader States. And I'm pretty set on my start date. But, in case you didn't know, in the next release, we're adding the County of Toulouse whose leader Raymond St. Gilles was one of the leaders of the first crusade.

    What I have in mind either formally giving them the option to give up their french possessions or encourage the players to relocate to the Holy Lands. Raymond by all accounts dreamed of establishing an "Oriental" Kingdom in the Holy Lands and swore to die there. And he did end up establishing the County of Tripoli after turning down the Jerusalem throne.

    So I think they'll give the player a viable option to establish a Crusader state.
    The Crusaders states have been done over enough to make them a bit bland, but in the same vein of the Raymond idea - What if you followed that with the other leading figures of the Crusades? It might be less factual than Raymond (Who as you say wanted to create an Oriental Kingdom), but Godfrey of Bouillon could be given to France or the HRE and could be able to establish the Kingdom of Jerusalem, while Bohemond I the First Prince of Antioch could belong to the Kingdom of Sicily.

  3. #103
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ahiga View Post
    The Crusaders states have been done over enough to make them a bit bland, but in the same vein of the Raymond idea - What if you followed that with the other leading figures of the Crusades? It might be less factual than Raymond (Who as you say wanted to create an Oriental Kingdom), but Godfrey of Bouillon could be given to France or the HRE and could be able to establish the Kingdom of Jerusalem, while Bohemond I the First Prince of Antioch could belong to the Kingdom of Sicily.
    Alright, you got me. I really dislike the Crusader States. And I especially hate them as a faction. So I wouldn't want to set aside a faction slot reserved for that type of thing for them.

    Part of what made Toulouse so appealing to me as a faction was that they were very distinct from Northern France at this time and it wasn't a given that they'd be swallowed up into France proper. That and they're kind of obscure enough that having them relocate as a faction wouldn't seem as weird as relocating France or Sicily.

    Personally, my favorite faction used to be Sicily. And I did include Bohemond as a family member in that huge deHauteville family tree. And I would roleplay the First Crusade and Principality of Antioch. By basically treating little Bohemond as a separate entity. Godrey's a good one, though. Have to include him next time.

    But yeah, if someone wants a Crusader State from me, Toulouse will be as close as they can get. I don't know, one thing, I actually liked about CA and M2TW was the ca. 1080 start-date.

    You have Alexius coming to power.

    You have the Rum Turks breaking away from the Seljuks.

    You have Ruben breaking away from the Byzantines in Cilicia.

    You have a pretty small Kingdom of Aragon just starting out.

    Spain has yet to take Toledo and really getting started.

    It's just prior to the Almoravids pouring into Iberia.

    Eventually, we'll have the Kypchaks starting out in the Steppe and ready to push westward and conflict with the Pechenegs, Hungarians and Byzantines.

    I like the date. One of the things CA got right IMO. Sets the situation up nicely, methinks!

    Cheers!
    S_I

    Back to work I go...

  4. #104

    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    I was going over the building file and noticed that the mongols can build russian buildings but can't train any units in the game except siege units and bodyguards.

    I havn't gotten to them yet, but that would be pretty screwed up if they can't train any units and are forced to build russian buildings.

    IMO they should have their own aor buildings and the ability to train units.

  5. #105
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Phan View Post
    I was going over the building file and noticed that the mongols can build russian buildings but can't train any units in the game except siege units and bodyguards.

    I havn't gotten to them yet, but that would be pretty screwed up if they can't train any units and are forced to build russian buildings.

    IMO they should have their own aor buildings and the ability to train units.
    Yeah, gigantus caught that too. Tip of the hat to you for clogging through that file. It's a doozy.

    I'm gonna try to release a patch in the next few days. But I really want to release an update with danova'a Ornamentum skins. Should I wait?:hmmm:

    Anyways, my thoughts are to limit the MOngols recruitment of their MOngolian units to the steps. Otherwise they'll have access to the same AOR units as everyone else.

    And yes, they probably should have their own AOR buildings, but I'm maxed out at the moment.

    IN the next release, I plan on combining infantry (i.e. archers AND foot soldiers) in the barracks line. That will free up around 13 build trees. And then I'll probably make the Mongols share the AOR buildings with the Kypchaks!

  6. #106
    billydilly's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    @Socal_infidel

    I totally agree about the Crusader States, they're boring, I feel the same about the Teutonic Order. It's much better to take one of your generals and establish a kingdom in the Levant if you want. It is much more of a challenge to hold on to your homelands at the same time as you are establishing a new kingdom far away. Like keeping the castle of Toulouse and creating the Kingdom of Jerusalem!
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  7. #107
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    I wouldn't say the Crusader states and the Teutonic Order are boring, but I agree with the idea that, for a mod that covers the period from 1080 AD and onwards, these factions shouldn't be included as separate from the rest, but only as part of existing Christian factions, if they manage to launch a successful crusade to the area. What I am suggesting is that some elements of the Crusader states and the Teutonic Order are incorporated into the construction and recruitment options for the existing Christian factions in certain regions of the Levant, which come into play when these Christian factions conquer the territory in question. So, if you play as the Germans, for example, and conquer Akko or Jerusalem, then a construction option should appear for a hospital that directly or indirectly can produce Teutonic Order units etc. If this isn't already possible with PDER.

    But that's just my three cents.

    Thank you for a great mod, Socal Infidel! I have just had my first go with it. I'm mighty impressed with the fact that you've done most of this all by yourself. And I like your artistic taste for loading screens and such a lot. Very nice!
    My favourite, if I am to pick one feature, is perhaps that you somehow have managed to rid the game from those glaring red border lines from the battlefield. I have wished those lines to disappear for years, ever since RTW. They have ruined many a historic mood and screenshot for me. No more, with PDER!
    Actually, I must ask you, how, exactly, did you do that?

    Thanks again for all your work!

    Edit: Have you tried removing the English translation of this mod's Latin name from the in-game screens? Everybody (or at least many) understand the meaning of that phrase, and the resulting cleaner look might come out cooler...
    Last edited by Demokritos; March 02, 2008 at 01:33 AM.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  8. #108
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    I wouldn't say the Crusader states and the Teutonic Order are boring, but I agree with the idea that, for a mod that covers the period from 1080 AD and onwards, these factions shouldn't be included as separate from the rest, but only as part of existing Christian factions, if they manage to launch a successful crusade to the area. What I am suggesting is that some elements of the Crusader states and the Teutonic Order are incorporated into the construction and recruitment options for the existing Christian factions in certain regions of the Levant, which come into play when these Christian factions conquer the territory in question. So, if you play as the Germans, for example, and conquer Akko or Jerusalem, then a construction option should appear for a hospital that directly or indirectly can produce Teutonic Order units etc. If this isn't already possible with PDER.

    But that's just my three cents.
    That's a good idea. I'll definitely look into something like this for the next major release. Toulouse will likely get Knights of Tripoli and maybe easier access to order troops.


    Thank you for a great mod, Socal Infidel! I have just had my first go with it. I'm mighty impressed with the fact that you've done most of this all by yourself. And I like your artistic taste for loading screens and such a lot. Very nice!
    My favourite, if I am to pick one feature, is perhaps that you somehow have managed to rid the game from those glaring red border lines from the battlefield. I have wished those lines to disappear for years, ever since RTW. They have ruined many a historic mood and screenshot for me. No more, with PDER!
    Actually, I must ask you, how, exactly, did you do that?
    Saw that someone else (wolfslayer, I think) had a mod that lowered the opacity of the borders. I just took it a step further and removed them completely.

    The exact file escapes me at the moment, but you just make the alpha channel entirely black. Thus, nothing shows.

    I just couldn't stand the red borders. They really killed immersion for me. Because everybody knows medieval battlefields were marked with a bright red border. I think they even had special units to mark them pre-battle after the parley...

    Thanks for the many praises! Glad you're enjoying the mod!

  9. #109
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    A common mistake!

    I have started the byzantine(who else)campaign...
    I saw a varity of "local"units that should not be in the asia minor provinces!!!
    We all some times mess the medeival history of asia minor with the present Turkey's poppulation background!
    Any one that must deside to show the asia minor poppulation's orrigin must use his logic...Turcomanic tribes with seljuks ones invated asia minor after Arp Aslan's death(1072)!
    Nikea fell in 1079-1080
    No musacers,church distructions happened...They(the turks)simply established a state with greek/roman subjects and turkish rullers(Antioch poppulation asked help from the 1st sultan of the Sultanate of Romans to get free from the ex byzantine rebel ruller)...

    Conclution:When someone occupies a country the local poppulation does not disapear...
    Sollution:Change the "local"troops of cyprus,west/north/south asia minor with greek origin units+turkopoles!!!

    Sugestions:1:Add silk resurce in the Constantinople region(there was silk production since Jiustinianus rullership).
    2:Make mines more atractive (increase their income)they are worthless as they are now!
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  10. #110
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    A common mistake!

    I have started the byzantine(who else)campaign...
    I saw a varity of "local"units that should not be in the asia minor provinces!!!
    We all some times mess the medeival history of asia minor with the present Turkey's poppulation background!
    Any one that must deside to show the asia minor poppulation's orrigin must use his logic...Turcomanic tribes with seljuks ones invated asia minor after Arp Aslan's death(1072)!
    Nikea fell in 1079-1080
    No musacers,church distructions happened...They(the turks)simply established a state with greek/roman subjects and turkish rullers(Antioch poppulation asked help from the 1st sultan of the Sultanate of Romans to get free from the ex byzantine rebel ruller)...

    Conclution:When someone occupies a country the local poppulation does not disapear...
    Sollution:Change the "local"troops of cyprus,west/north/south asia minor with greek origin units+turkopoles!!!

    Sugestions:1:Add silk resurce in the Constantinople region(there was silk production since Jiustinianus rullership).
    2:Make mines more atractive (increase their income)they are worthless as they are now!
    Thanks for the suggestions. Still been meaning to respond to your PM. Hard to find the time with work being busy at the moment.

    There should be Greek levy units available in those regions. I know about the Cyprus and Crete AOR regions being messed up.

    But in Anatolia, you should have 1) Greek militia units available 2) Anatolian levies 3) Akritai infantry and cavalry and 4) Turcopoles available in the AOR pools to represent the native Greek populations still there. The Turks get access to them too. And in some instances would have to rely on them as their own roster is lacking.

    For example, the Rum Turks have no spearmen or light spear cavalry, so they have to rely on Greek AOR units for these troops.

    Turcoman units are included because they did eventually settle in Anatolia.

    If you wouldn't mind though, perhaps you could help out with appropriate religion percentages in these regions.

    Thanks for feedback!

  11. #111
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Sultans of Rum respacted the poppulation's religion...
    As the arabs did centuries ago anyone who joined islam had no taxes...
    Acritae (both mounted and dismounted)were profetionall troops of the empire (their name means "those who live at the edge[border])...
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  12. #112
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Well, now I've played some more, and I like it better and better. Only thing I would like to add at this point is that I agree with those who think the economy is a bit on the strangled side (upgrades like grain exchange fail to make any difference for the income worth noting, at least in Scandinavia), including the meager utility of Merchants. I've made a temporary personal improvement by adding 500 Denari to the King's purse for every faction in the descr_strat.txt file. But where do you change the monetary effects of buildings and merchants?

    BTW, here's how the menu would come out like if the Latin title is allowed to stand without explanation:



    I find it a bit prouder and cooler.
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  13. #113
    Gigantus's Avatar I am not special - I am a limited edition.
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Monetary effects for buildings are in this file: data\descr_settlement_mechanics.xml
    Open with notepad and look in the parts that have 'SIF' in them, eg SIF_Trade. Those are the income modifiers.
    Merchant modifiers are here: descr_campaign_db.xml, look for the 'merchant' part. (Wouldn't have guessed that one, did you?)










  14. #114
    Demokritos's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by gigantus View Post
    Monetary effects for buildings are in this file: data\descr_settlement_mechanics.xml
    Open with notepad and look in the parts that have 'SIF' in them, eg SIF_Trade. Those are the income modifiers.
    Merchant modifiers are here: descr_campaign_db.xml, look for the 'merchant' part. (Wouldn't have guessed that one, did you?)
    Cheers, mate!
    GNOTHI SEAUTON (Know Thyself) - precept inscribed in the forecourt of the Temple of Apollo at Delphi, Greece
    MEDEN AGAN (Nothing To Excess) - another precept inscribed in the aforementioned place

  15. #115
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    I think the problem with finances is getting the balance right. This is not unique to mods but to all the vanilla TW games I've played. Being more generous with the cash flow early on in a campaign does facilitate the growth and development of your embryonic empire, but the mechanics employed to do so will then usually have you swimming in ridiculous amounts of money by the time you're mid-campaign.

    The downside of this is a high level corruption and your family members turn into a despicable group of money-grabbing despots. I find this reduces my pleasure in role-playing my "first" family, as it's always more pleasant to play with "nice" people.

    Another problem with too much money is that it reduces the challenge and the campaign can become a "cake-walk".

    PDER 1.0a is much tighter fiscally than its predecessor (PDER 0.1a), and I am finding it much harder to expand with the Basileia ton Rhomaion. Even so, I am 80 years into my campaign and have been able to build my treasury to around the 50k mark.

    The upshot is that the tighter economy, coupled with extended recruiting times, is maintaining the tension and challenge of the campaign for far longer. Maybe it requires further tweaking but I'd say that Socal is pretty much on the right path with PDER's economy.
    Last edited by Tony83; March 03, 2008 at 05:38 AM.

  16. #116
    AnthoniusII's Avatar Μέγαc Δομέστικοc
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    What is the meaning of the siege equipment's apsence?
    TGC in order to continue its development seak one or more desicated scripters to put our campaign scripts mess to an order plus to create new events and create the finall missing factions recruitment system. In return TGC will give permision to those that will help to use its material stepe by step. The result will be a fully released TGC plus many mods that will benefit TGC's material.
    Despite the mod is dead does not mean that anyone can use its material
    read this to avoid misunderstandings.

    IWTE tool master and world txt one like this, needed inorder to release TGC 1.0 official to help TWC to survive.
    Adding MARKA HORSES in your mod and create new varietions of them. Tutorial RESTORED.


  17. #117
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Demokritos View Post
    Well, now I've played some more, and I like it better and better. Only thing I would like to add at this point is that I agree with those who think the economy is a bit on the strangled side (upgrades like grain exchange fail to make any difference for the income worth noting, at least in Scandinavia), including the meager utility of Merchants. I've made a temporary personal improvement by adding 500 Denari to the King's purse for every faction in the descr_strat.txt file. But where do you change the monetary effects of buildings and merchants?

    BTW, here's how the menu would come out like if the Latin title is allowed to stand without explanation:



    I find it a bit prouder and cooler.

    I dig the menu. Send it over!

    As far as the economy is concerned, the problem is that there is a certain tipping point that the human player eventually reaches. Where it becomes inevitable that they'll win. Increasing the money earlier only speeds up reaching the tipping point.

    I'm still trying to balance the economy so as to provide a challenge for the human player. I'm not a fan of siege costs or penalties for agents afield as they can't be properly accounted for on the financial details ledger. I'm always open to thoughts, though.

  18. #118
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by AnthoniusII View Post
    What is the meaning of the siege equipment's apsence?
    They're still there. Only available in castles, though. The original thought behind it was to limit the AI over-reliance on siege equipment. They have the tendency to spam it. But that might have to be reconsidered in light of the recruit_priority_offset that Kingdoms offers...

  19. #119

    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    I really like the finance side of this mod because I think that is the main area that makes a campaign hard. When I've built up a significant treasury and income I find conquering easy but you really have to work at it in this mod. Other than the mines which generate a very poor return, I think PDER has got it pretty sussed financially.
    I too was playing the Byzantines and managed to get about 50k by about 40 or 50 turns (largely due to luck in diplomacy and war) but even then I found that I wasn't as secure in my finances as I would have been in vanilla and an extra army or a lost trade agreement could tip the balance of my resource and expenditure so I had to be careful.

  20. #120
    Socal_infidel's Avatar PDER Piper
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    Default Re: PRO DEO ET REGE 1.0 QUESTIONS & SUGGESTIONS

    Quote Originally Posted by Emperor Basil View Post
    I really like the finance side of this mod because I think that is the main area that makes a campaign hard. When I've built up a significant treasury and income I find conquering easy but you really have to work at it in this mod. Other than the mines which generate a very poor return, I think PDER has got it pretty sussed financially.
    I too was playing the Byzantines and managed to get about 50k by about 40 or 50 turns (largely due to luck in diplomacy and war) but even then I found that I wasn't as secure in my finances as I would have been in vanilla and an extra army or a lost trade agreement could tip the balance of my resource and expenditure so I had to be careful.
    yeah, the mines are a bit of a money-pit so to speak. I haven't played vanilla in a looooooooooooooong time (maybe over a year?). How much do they generate per turn?

    On another note, my Georgian campaign bit the dust as I noticed a few small bugs that I just had to go fix. Now I'm not sure what faction to start up a new campaign as...I'm thinking the Turks and I'm gonna make it a goal to destroy every Crusader army marching through my lands. Should be easy too as Horse Archers rule!

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