Rome vs the Seleucids: Who Rules?

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Let's match the Seleucids against the Romans. That's right - it's the Beast from the East vs the Best from the West!

THE SELEUCIDS


THE ROMANS (Julii, Brutii, Scipii, SPQR)


Feel free to discuss this matchup from any angle whether it be Campaign, or Multiplayer (low denarii, mid denarii, outrageous denarii) or Single-Player Custom Battle. To avoid any confusion, you might want to specify if you're fighting against a human player or not.

[Barry]

In th hands of an actual human each can beat the other, The force of the legions' discipline should be able to overcome anything but the Seleucids have a vast array of powerful units Rome's infantry is best, Seleucids cav is better than Romes, Seleucids have ellies, Rome pigs. Yh its even although the legions could not face up to the long pikes in an AI charge but the pikes can be flanked. I could go on all day.

[Prince_of_Macedon]

In th hands of an actual human each can beat the other, The force of the legions' discipline should be able to overcome anything but the Seleucids have a vast array of powerful units Rome's infantry is best, Seleucids cav is better than Romes, Seleucids have ellies, Rome pigs. Yh its even although the legions could not face up to the long pikes in an AI charge but the pikes can be flanked. I could go on all day.

Keep going then, because you've only written a few sentences.

Just a heads up, Urban Cohorts beat any Seleucid pike unit (even in a head-on fight).

[Barry]

Really, i was under the impression that a unit would not be able to get close enough because of the pikes. Sort of like holding a toddler at arms length

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Really, i was under the impression that a unit would not be able to get close enough because of the pikes. Sort of like holding a toddler at arms length

A lot of history buffs make that assumption when playing this game. But the fact of the matter is that Urban Cohorts aren't historically-accurate units. They'll dice up any Silver Shield or Phalanx Pikemen they fight against whether it be from the back, side or front.

Here's another mistake commonly made by history buffs who play this game online:
- using an army composed entirely of Hastati, Triarii, Principes and Equites. This will get you killed if your opponent isn't screwing around.

[piranha45]

if you have a unit of silver shield pikes fight a unit of urbans head-on in custom battle, the urbans will steadily drift over to the sides of the pikes where a small number of the urbans will slice away at the sides of the pikes, and the pikes lose.... 70 urbans remain, 15 pikes remain, before the pikes rout.

[Eccentric]

I voted seleucids, they have better cav, and who ever wins the cav battle ALMOST always wins the battle, plus they have eles which totally humiliate roman inf.

[Barry]

A lot of history buffs make that assumption when playing this game.

Cool, I just got called a history buff.

[^Gr8^Xander]

I think it's equal. Rome has superior infantry, while the Seleucids have better cavalry and elephants. Both sides can be countered rather easy. (velites and pigs against elephants for example, and use the better cavalry to charge the Roman infantry)

I say it would totally depend on the commander's tactics. Based on the units, none is superior to the other.

[Barry]

You going to vote, my point simplified.

[Xavier Dragnesi]

I'd say they are quite even off. They both have quite good troops and unit types, it's mostly based on how the commanders (players) use these troops. A bad commander who has the best Seleucid troops even with best weapons and experience can lose against some unblooded Roman troops with a strategical and clever commander, and vice versa.
I reckoned that if any of the other factions had any troop type similar to the legions, they would all cane Rome cos Rome's best weapon is their strong and organised infantry. Compare almost anything of Rome's against another faction and they lose hard out.

P.S. What is that unit type called in the Romans list on 1st row, 12th card?

[Antissa]

The soldier in the 12th card of the Unit Roster is the Roman Arcanii, also known as the uber Roman ninja.

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Rome cos Rome's best weapon is their strong and organised infantry. Compare almost anything of Rome's against another faction and they lose hard out.

Well, that's not true at all.
- Praetorian Cavalry is one of the best cavalry units in the game.
- As far as cheap archers go, Roman Archers get the job done.
- As far as elite archers go, Archer Auxilia are still competitive.

A bad commander who has the best Seleucid troops even with best weapons and experience can lose against some unblooded Roman troops with a strategical and clever commander, and vice versa.

What about two equally-experienced commanders then?

[Xavier Dragnesi]

What about two equally-experienced commanders then?

Well in the case of two equally experienced commanders, I would say they are pretty much equal.

- Praetorian Cavalry is one of the best cavalry units in the game.
- As far as cheap archers go, Roman Archers get the job done.
- As far as elite archers go, Archer Auxilia are still competitive.

Praetorian Cavalry - I can't say cos I've never gone past the reforms when I've played the Romans, so I wouldn't know. (Somehow, I must be unlucky, cos I get to 170 BC and still nothing happens)
Roman Archers - They get the job done, true, but they are really that much to compare with against other archers of other factions.
Archer Auxilia - Refer to the point on Praetorian Cavalry

[Prince_of_Macedon]

Well in the case of two equally experienced commanders, I would say they are pretty much equal.



Praetorian Cavalry - I can't say cos I've never gone past the reforms when I've played the Romans, so I wouldn't know. (Somehow, I must be unlucky, cos I get to 170 BC and still nothing happens)
Roman Archers - They get the job done, true, but they are really that much to compare with against other archers of other factions.
Archer Auxilia - Refer to the point on Praetorian Cavalry

All of my comments refer to the Multiplayer aspect of Rome: Total War. I was under the impression that you were talking about Multiplayer too since you said the matchup was dependent on the experience-level of each player.

[general nuisance]

It really depends upon the money online in my opinion
Anything above 20,000 denari and I would definately say the Romans have a strong advantage being close in cavalry strength, and at that money you could afford archer auxilia vs the seludide archers combine that with the superior infrantry of the Romans and a cheap but effective answer to elephants in pigs I think that Rome is just ahead
Below that it is a close call and depends upon the strategy, ability and unit selection of the players
I have some personnal experience as this was the semi final match up in the last tourney between Leo (selucide) and myself (Rome - Julii) and Leo beat me (He is very good though)

[Eccentric]

I know this may be a bit off topic but I think Carthage fits in with these two, their cavalry is not quite as good as either of the two but Carth's eles are cheaper than the Seleucids and though they lack archers their inf make up for it, they easily beat Seleucids inf and can stand up to Romes if used properly.
Just want to mention that on higher denari eles don't run amok as easily if you upgrade them.(I tried it in custom battle)

[Prince_of_Macedon]

I know this may be a bit off topic but I think Carthage fits in with these two, their cavalry is not quite as good as either of the two but Carth's eles are cheaper than the Seleucids and though they lack archers their inf make up for it, they easily beat Seleucids inf and can stand up to Romes if used properly.
Just want to mention that on higher denari eles don't run amok as easily if you upgrade them.(I tried it in custom battle)

If you love Carthage that much, try this thread instead:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=111947

[Xavier Dragnesi]

Well, in multiplayer basically they are quite even matched, if you put the denarii at 10000, and all rules such as no elephants and no artillery are off. After all, they are classified as the masters of east and west.
Talking about it that well though, makes me think what are the masters of north and south? Carthage being power of the south, and Germania being kings of the barbarian north?:hmmm:

[Barry]

Well, the germans were never subjected to Roman Rule. Who do Carthage have as their opponents for the south? Numidia? Is that all?