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Thread: General Discussion & Comments

  1. #81

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by julianus heraclius View Post
    I'm trying to get a handle on the roman titles for this period, both civil and military. Can people please post a list of possible titles that can be used for RO.
    Quote Originally Posted by julianus heraclius View Post

    Cheers


    Heraclius, my knowledge is more military than civil, though I have done some work on the so-called 'Rise of the Equites' into Senatorial posts under Gallienus.

    Also, bear in mind that Roman official terminology - especially during the mid-C3 - is a lot more flexible than modern terminology. So many titles are interchangeable (a bit like 'Commander' and 'General', for instance).

    I have given you only the Latin terms. If you need the equivalent Greek ones, just ask.

    MILITARY:
    praepositus - generic title for 'unit commander'. You can be a praep. coh, praep. alae, praep. vex, or even a praep. leg.

    praefectus legionis a.v.l (agens vices legati) - usually used for equestrian legionary commanders, which became more common after the 'reforms' of Gallienus. NB: The changes Gallienus instituted meant that more (but not all) legions came under full equestrian command in the later C3. A.V.L. means 'acting in place of the Legate'.

    legatus legionis - non-equestrian (ie. senatorial) legionary commanders.

    dux - General: a military commander (usually an equestrian after Gallienus, but by no means always) put in charge of a force of units drawn from multiple provinces - ie. an army. More often than not, these were vexillations rather than full legions, and semi-permanent vexillation seems to have become the norm under Gallienus, most probably out of necessity.

    magister exercitus - 'Commander of the army': title given to Iulius Saturninus by Aurelian - BUT the references are all 4th, 5th or 6th Century literary ones, so the title is probably a late-Roman anachronism.

    praefectus praetorium - the Praetorian Prefect is still the most senior military figure in the Empire right up to the time of Diocletian and probably beyond.

    NB: Diocletian is said to have been the praefectus of the protectors domestici at the time of his accession, but the domestici did not exist until 350 at the earliest, so this is an anachronism of the later Roman sources.

    Augustus nostri – our Augustus, or Emperor.

    EQUESTRIAN CAREER MILESTONES:
    These are titles you can include in the character sheet of an equestrian vir militaris to mark his progression.

    evocatus - service in the evocati was a springboard to the centurionate.

    centurio protector - a late C3 title which is still debatable, but probably marks you out for better things. Christol is WRONG when he says this is a centurion in the field army, but it takes 10,000 words to explain why. NB: This title does NOT appear until AFTER Gallienus' death.

    princeps protector et primipilus - a late C3 title which usually marks you out for promotion. NB: This title does NOT appear until AFTER Gallienus' death.

    ex protectoribus - a late C3 title which usually marks you out for promotion. NB: This title does NOT appear until AFTER Gallienus' death.

    praefectus castrorum - second-in-command of a legion.

    tribunus vigilum/urbiniciani/praetoriae - the urban tres militiae of the career officer, doing his time in the cohorts in Rome.

    Tribunus praetoriae prot. Aug. n. (protector Augusti nostri) – a title ONLY found during the reign of Gallienus. Prot. Aug. n. means ‘protector of our Emperor’. It was given to a man who then accelerated through the ranks to very high military office.

    Praepositus vexillationem – commander of a detachment of vexillations.

    ducenarius - 500 HS man. A property qualification that is a mark of status.

    Praefectus legionis avl – Equestrian legionary commander, ‘acting in place of the Legate’.

    Praef. Leg. prot. Aug. n. a.v.l. – A title ONLY found during the reign of Gallienus, which marks out the first ever equestrians commanding non-equestrian legions in place of the senatorial Legate.

    NB: The 3 Legg. Parthicae and II Traiana in Egypt were always commanded by equestrian praefecti (I believe that’s true of the 2 Legg. Italicae also, but I’m not absolutely sure).

    vir egregius – a mark of status which sets you up for provincial command.

    Praeses provinciae – Governor of a equestrian province (ie. appointed by the emperor).

    vir perfectissimus – a mark of even higher status which is usually coupled with command of a senatorial province.

    Praeses provinciae avl – Provincial Governor, appointed in place of the senatorial Legate.

    Praefectus Praetoriae – Praetorian Prefect.

    Vir consulari ordinari – Ordinary Consul – Petronius Volusianus was made consul after having served as Gallienus’ Praetorian Prefect. He was one of the first viri militares and the model protector Augusti nostri.


    EQUESTRIAN CIVIL CURSUS HONORUM
    This is the progression of civil posts that an equestrian might go through. Note that very few men ever followed a purely civilian career path.

    Advocatus fisci – junior finance officer.

    Procurator – financial officer in a province.

    Ducenarius

    Vir egregius

    Praeses provinciae – Governor of an equestrian province (ie. one appointed by the Emperor)

    Vir perfectissimus

    Praeses provinciae avl – Governor of a province usually governed by a senator.

    Praefectus domestici – Prefect of the Household

    Vir consulari ordinari – Technically possible, though I believe only Volusianus is attested as such.


    SENATORIAL CURSUS HONORUM
    It is a fallacy caused by the pro-senatorial bias of Aurelius Victor that Gallienus excluded senators from provincial governorships. I can cite more than a dozen senators who held governorships from and after Gallienus. However, Gallienus DID open certain provinces which had previously been exclusively senatorial, such as Arabia and the Pannonias, to equestrians during his reign.

    Tribunus militum – The last 2 known tribuni laticlavii date from the reigns of Decius and Gallienus. Both were children. So it is clear that by this point, the post had become a sinecure.

    Aedile – city administrator in Rome. It still holds a certain cachet.

    Praetor – junior magistrate in Rome.

    Tibunis cohortis or alae – unit commander

    Praepositus vexillationis – Vexillation commander. I don’t actually know of any senatorial praep. vexx. but that doesn’t mean they didn’t exist.

    Legatus legionis – legion commander.

    Consul – Consul in Rome.

    Vir clarissimus – ex-consul.

    Legatus or praeses provinciae – Provincial governor. Also labelled v(ir). c(larissimus). leg(atus). Aug(usti). p(ro). pr(aetoriae). Governors of ‘senatorial’ provinces were technically appointed by the Senate.

    Dux – army commander.



    I think that’s probably enough. If you need a list of the senatorial and equestrian provinces, and dates when they changed, just let me know.

    M<

  2. #82
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    This is all great stuff. Thanks

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  3. #83

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    You're very welcome. As I say, I'm thrilled that someone's actually designing a properly historical Third Century Crisis campaign.

    Best of luck,
    M<

  4. #84

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Reviewing my earlier post: 'Tibunis' should, or course, read 'Tribunus' - damn typos !-)
    M<

  5. #85
    mircea's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Licinius Ibeii View Post
    Correction - my mistake.

    The Iuthungi are a sub-group of the Vandals, not the Goths.

    The Goths at this time are made up of the Carpi, the Heruli, and some would argue that the Roxolani are actually a sub-grouping of the Gothic tribes. Also, they have boats and they're not afraid to use 'em!
    While you are probably correct about Heruli, your informations about Carpi are less accurate. Although the ethnicity for a III AD people is quite hard, sometimes impossible to guess, most information we have about Carpi point towards a very probable Dacian origin of the tribe. The only ancient literary sources that supposedly speaks about the ethnicity of the Carpians, Zosimos uses the term Carpodacians(καρποδάκαι), no other literary source speakes about the ethnicity of the Carpians. The Dacian origin is also partially supported by the titles of the Roman Emperors that fought them. The best example is Diocletianus which uses the title of Carpicus Maximus, but also the title of Gothicus Maximus, quite a strange situation because he used two different titles for the same tribe. The next emperor, Constantine the Great is even using the title Dacicus Maximus, although this title could be also connected to the campaign in Southern Dacia and not necessarily with the tribe of Carpians.
    But the greatest support for the Dacian origin of the Carpians is offered by archaeology. The Carpian archaeological remains show a culture evolved from the older Dacian culture with strong Romanic, Germanic(mostly Bastarnae) and Saramtian influences.

    The Dacian origin and the fact that the Carpians were a Free Dacian tribe seems to be the most widely accepted view, with both The Cambridge ancient history and Matthew Bunson's A Dictionary of the Roman Empire(Oxford University Press Editure) supporting this view.


    I'll be glad to help you with the research with this faction and with the region of ancient Dacia (part Roman province, part free)

  6. #86

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by mircea View Post
    the greatest support for the Dacian origin of the Carpians is offered by archaeology. The Carpian archaeological remains show a culture evolved from the older Dacian culture with strong Romanic, Germanic(mostly Bastarnae) and Saramtian influences.

    The Dacian origin and the fact that the Carpians were a Free Dacian tribe seems to be the most widely accepted view, with both The Cambridge ancient history and Matthew Bunson's A Dictionary of the Roman Empire(Oxford University Press Editure) supporting this view.

    )
    I wouldn't argue with that.

    My admittedly sketchy knowledge of barbarian migration patterns is very Romano-centric, and as we all know, the Romans have a tendency to lump the barbarian tribes together - especially since the Goths and the Carpi were often allied - hence Diocletian's titles. Dexippus, for instance, uses the umbrella term of 'Skythians' for them all.

    If the archaeology points towards a north Dacian origin for the Carpi, that makes perfect sense. Their southward migration in the 250s was prompted by pressure from the Goths, with whom they formed various alliances, most notably with Kniva during the reign of Decius. That pressure eventually forces Gallienus to begin the Roman withdrawal from Dacia, formally completed by Aurelian after his defeat of the Goths & the Carpi in AD271.

  7. #87

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    I think it will be harder work if the scenario begins about 260 A.D.. Gallic Empire is not so strong enemy for Emperor, so the scenario had better include roman-rebels faction other than Gallic Empire, which represents so cold "Thirty Tyrants", such as Regalianus, Macrianus e,t,c,,

  8. #88

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by mochi View Post
    I think it will be harder work if the scenario begins about 260 A.D.. Gallic Empire is not so strong enemy for Emperor, so the scenario had better include roman-rebels faction other than Gallic Empire, which represents so cold "Thirty Tyrants", such as Regalianus, Macrianus e,t,c,,
    That's what makes it so interesting! You are Gallienus - the Emperor Valerian has just been captured by the Persians, and 2/3 of the Roman world has responded by rebelling against you.

    First, you have to survive, THEN you have to reconquer the Empire.

    You're right about the Gallic Empire - though remember that Gallienus had at least one (and arguably 2) failed campaigns against Postumus. One was ended by the probable treachery of Aureolus, and the other was cut short by troubles on the Danube. But that just proves your point - the Gallic Empire doesn't have the strength to stand up to a concerted imperial attack. Without the Illyrian provinces rebelling every time you withdraw troops from them, and causing a distraction, the Gallic Empire will inevitably fall - though the campaigns of Gallienus demonstrate that it's still a tough nut to crack.

    M<

  9. #89
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Thought might be interested to see these fellors 3rd century and late 3rd early 4th century legionaires


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  10. #90

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Um... pics don't seem to come up. I got a message saying: 'You don't have permission to see these images.'
    M<

  11. #91
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    http://www.roman-empire.net/army/leg...h-century.html i took them from roman army page.Sorry for inconvienience i'll put them in my pictures
    Last edited by Constantius; May 18, 2009 at 04:39 AM.


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  12. #92
    Antonius's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    the pics rule!

    man I hope this isn't dead
    It is always easier to fight for one’s principles than to live up to them.
    ~Alfred Adler

  13. #93
    julianus heraclius's Avatar The Philosopher King
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Antonius View Post
    the pics rule!

    man I hope this isn't dead
    No it's not, but will take most of the year to complete due to other time and modding requirments. But it will be worth it.

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  14. #94

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by M. Licinius Ibeii View Post
    That's what makes it so interesting! You are Gallienus - the Emperor Valerian has just been captured by the Persians, and 2/3 of the Roman world has responded by rebelling against you.

    First, you have to survive, THEN you have to reconquer the Empire.

    You're right about the Gallic Empire - though remember that Gallienus had at least one (and arguably 2) failed campaigns against Postumus. One was ended by the probable treachery of Aureolus, and the other was cut short by troubles on the Danube. But that just proves your point - the Gallic Empire doesn't have the strength to stand up to a concerted imperial attack. Without the Illyrian provinces rebelling every time you withdraw troops from them, and causing a distraction, the Gallic Empire will inevitably fall - though the campaigns of Gallienus demonstrate that it's still a tough nut to crack.

    M<

    Too bad there's no way to simulate the political infighting among the elites.

  15. #95

    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Quote Originally Posted by ray243 View Post
    Too bad there's no way to simulate the political infighting among the elites.
    There may be, to a limited extent.

    It's a long time since I played the RTW campaign, but if memory serves me right, you could tweak the unrest rules, so that the frontier cities on the Rhine/Danube would rebel if you didn't have the right (loyal) governor present in them, taking their armies with them.

    Also, the Senate Missions could be used to generate some really irritating distractions that simulate the problems the likes of Gallienus had to deal with. Eg: "The Illyrian Provinces are complaining that you do not care about their defence. You must invade Goth territory and take (city x) to mollify them." Gothic City x having the kind of unrest setting that means it will rebel no matter what you do, once you have taken it. And if you don't fulfil the mission, the unrest levels of all your Danube provinces goes up.

    Of course, If you REALLY want to simulate the tension between Gallienus and the Senate, then the Senate Missions should also demand that you replace Illyrian Soldier Governor X with Senatorial Governor Y - who is, of course, less competent and more unreliable.

    I have no idea whether any of this is remotely possible within the current game parameters, but it's a thought.

    M<

  16. #96
    SeniorBatavianHorse's Avatar Tribunus Vacans
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Excellent suggestions. I think that would make the campaign both dynamic and historically accurate as much as the game parameters allow.

  17. #97
    Lionheart's Avatar Decanus
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Regardibg the first campaign do not forgett Carinus and Numerian the sons of Carus and the antecessors of Dioclecian in the east (this regarding Numerian) and Carinus in the west (defeated in 285 in batle by Diocletian that after that choose Maximian as a co-augustus for the west)

  18. #98
    Constantius's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Those are excellent ideas, and could be modified for other mods


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  19. #99
    juvenus's Avatar Campidoctor
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    Excellent stuff indeed! If only half of your ideas get implemented, this mod will be awesome.


  20. #100
    Magister Militum Flavius Aetius's Avatar δούξ θρᾳκήσιου
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    Default Re: Restitutor Orbis overview/preview

    The Illyrian control over the empire in the 3rd century was appaulinag. They had almost total control until diocletian

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