Faction - Duchy of Austria

[Bosnae]

Well i was researching about that but i couldn't find any special slovenian Unit from that time, they probable fought in the same manner as the Austrian did or i don't know, maybe Sklabos knows something about that?

[saneel]

Kosezi is slovenian unit.

[Bartholomaios Sklabos]

True saneel, but by this time they were just a social class that lost their meaning. They were falling down the social ladder (from about 12-13 c.) and were becoming common peasants (minority retained status of free peasants or reached nobility).
They were a social/military group which was important in early middle ages.

Basically it was all pretty much like Bosnae said -the same thing as in Austria and HRE in general. Perhaps peasants were more important here as elsewhere (they took part in defence, building of fortifications, rebellions,... - see upper posts for more info), so I would make their units rather efficient, but in general there was no renown regional slavic unit (even the peasants were of mixed ethnicity, though predominantly of slavic origin). With the exception of the language, everything was under strong german influence.

[Bosnae]

I think Peasents were pretty important in all of Austria, due to the Fact that Austria had no really big citys (except Vienna in the later 14th) compared to this in the rest of the HRE.

[blooddragon5]

I think there could be a unit of Slovenia :

in a settlement of Lipica, Slovenians were breeding the finest horses for Austrian crown. So maybe there could be unit named like Lipican (Lipizan) - knights or whatever you can think of

[mephistopholes]

what more is needed for Austria? i don't know much about the country but i'll gladly hunt down anything you might need if i can.

[Bartholomaios Sklabos]

Interesting idea blooddragon5. But I think the majority of nobles used different breeds - I doubt that Lipizzaners were bred in adequate numbers. And they were not introduced until the second half of the 16th century.
The only interesting information about horses that I came across is that carniolan nobility apparently also rode (beside heavy warhorses) smaller horses which were introduced in Military frontier by "uskoki". However all grave plates and prints (at least of important noblemen) depict knights clad in heavy plate armor. For example:http://www.hgzd.hr/files/images/Sigi...erberstein.jpg (Žiga/Sigismmund Herberstein) http://img8.imageshack.us/i/menina09014.jpg/ (Janez Kacijanar) http://www.maribor2012.si/userfiles/image331.jpg (Friderik Ptujski)
Although these small horses were extremely tough, I don't think they were capable of carrying fully armed knight into battle. So they were probably used in specific circumstances such as skirmishes and scouting.
These smaller horses were used mostly by lighter troops (the above-mentioned uskoki).

[Sloveni]

i can help a liitle bit of history on this area maybe...

[il_duce_!]

contact spyrosM91.

or post here something useful. Maps, units, links, etc.

[Knight2708]

Here is some information I compiled about German troops in the 14th and 15th centuries. Hope this helps.

Cavalry:

"Ritter" by the 14th century was a designation of rank within the feudal hierarchy, but was no longer used as a military term. Instead, like in most other European countries, heavy cavalry was made up of men at arms that were made up of a mix of nobles, mercenaries and wealthy patricians (called "Glevenbürger" or "Konstafler" in German)
Around the middle of the 14th century cavalry units started being organised as "Gleven" (lances, sometimes also called "Spieße") made up of a man at arms, usually supported by around 1-3 mounted retainers and sometimes also a few retainers on foot. "Gleven" featured most prominently in the early 15th century, but had completely disappeared by its second half, with men at arms seemingly being organised into heavy cavalry regiments without any retainers.
The men at arms were known by a variety of different names. The term most commonly used in the mid 14th century was "Helme" (helmets) or "Behelmte" (men with helmets). With the appearance of the full plate harness in the 15th century they were also called "Geharnischte" (men in harness). As the leaders of "Gleven" they were also called "Glevener" and sometimes "Spießer". In the 16th century the term "Kyriser" (cuirassiers) started to be used for heavy cavalry. "Reisige" (traveling/mounted soldiers) and "Gewappnete" (men at arms)were used throughout the period, although "Reisige" seems to have been used most commonly,

The retainers were called "Wapener" (also "Wapenknappen" or "Wapenknechte", these roughly translate to "coat of arms squires") or "Speerknappen" (spear squires). They were squires who had completed their knightly training and now fought as retainers to achieve their knighthood. They seemingly disappeared as a distinct type of soldier with the end of the "Gleven" system around 1450-1460.

Around the mid 14th century there are also mentions of a type of cavalrymen called "Renner" after their lighter horses. These were lighter cavalry, although they did wear some armor, as they were also called "Panzirer" or "Panzerati", "Panzer" designating mail armor in medieval German terminology, some even had some form of plate armor as they were called "Platner" or "mit Plate" (with plate). There is some suggestion that they were mostly made up of burghers. They may have operated as retainers within "Gleven" or as independent units. Mentions of them disappear in the second half of the 14th century.

Infantry:

The standard term for a foot soldier was "Fusskecht" (foot servant, sometimes also called only "Knecht"). Initially they seem to have mostly been attached to "Gleven" in relatively small numbers, with only 1-2 "Fussknechte" per "Gleve", while the bulk of the infantry was provided by urban contingents. In the second half of the 15th century they increasingly seem to have been organised into larger regiments recruited independently of the cavalry. "Fussknechte" would likely have used a variety of polearms such as spears, glaives, voulges and halberds.

Militias were called "Bürgerwehr" or "Spiesser". They wre made up of the poorest citizens and were thus not very well equipped, being only required to have a spear, shield and helmet. Urban arenals called "Zeughäuser" (literally stuff houses) provided access to additional equipment that was in theory supposed to be returned after armed conflict had ended, but inventory keeping was generally very poorly organised and ineffective and as a result eqipment often went missing. The militia would thus have a rather ad hoc and unstandardised look. Sometimes cities would provide uniform clothing and equipment for individual campaigns, however. In the 15th century various types of two handed spears (''Langspiesse") were used more frequently.

Levies were called "Landsturm". They were mostly used for the defense of the land. The members of the "Landsturm" were actually decently equipped with a decree from early 15th century Austria requiring them to have padded or mail armor, a kettle helmet, a sword or Messer and either a polearm, great flail, crossbow or handgun.

German men at arms would frequently fight on foot, especially in the mountainous terrain in which the Austrians often found themselves. Due to the development of plate armour, dismounted men at arms would generally forgo using shields in favour of two handed longswords, poleaxes or shortened lances used as improvised pikes.

Ranged Troops:

Ranged troops seem to have played a somewhat marginal role in the 14th century. There is mention of "Gleven" sometimes being accompanied by a crossbowman.

In cities, guilds and confraternities of "Schützen" (shooters, etymologically derived from the verb "schützen" (to protect)) who regularly practised shooting with crossbows, and later handguns, were formed by the citizenry for their mutual protection. In some cities these evolved into professional corps that served as military rapid response units, as well as fulfilling civic functions as police, firefighters and honorary guards of the city council. Recruited from amongst wealthy burghers and guild members, they were generally well armoured. In the 15th century, increasingly professional "Schützen" played a more important role in warfare, being requested in large numbers for the wars against the Hussites. These were mostly professional mercenaries, with a minority being provided by cities' citizenry. They increasingly used handguns, with handgunners ("Büchenschützen") and crossbowmen ("Armbrustschützen") being requested in equal numbers for the War against the Hussites in 1431 and handgunners becoming the most widely used missile troops by the last decades of the 15th century.

Mercenaries:

Generally, mercenaries were recruited in rather ad hoc fashion in medieval Germany without forming the distinct companies that developed, for example, in Italy. I could also not find any mentions of special regional mercenaries. Mercenaries seem to mostly have fought in the same way as most other German troops and were seemingly pretty indistinguishable from them with the same general troop types of "Reisige", "Fussknechte" and "Schützen" also being applicable to mercenaries.

[Wallachian]

Thank you for your summary. The Austrian roster is fairly well developed and more than playable, it has peasants, several burger militia units (spearmen, halberdiers), several shooters (peasant archers, crossbowmen, heavy crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, handgunners, pavise arquebusiers), several heavy units (two handed swordsmen, heavy pavise spearmen, heavy halberdiers), landsknechts from late XVth century (pikemen, halberdiers, two handed swordsmen, arquebusiers), plus swiss, hussite, hungarian mercenaries.

My questions would be:

- what about the use of the pike. Where there long spearmen type units like the italians had in the XIVth century? Or did germans only really start using pikes in the late XVth century?
- what about cavalry. we currently have the Sergeants as medium cavalry/squires, the Ritter as the noble knights and the Duke's Guard. Should there be any other type of cavalry and what would differentiate them from the others

[Knight2708]

Thank you for your summary. The Austrian roster is fairly well developed and more than playable, it has peasants, several burger militia units (spearmen, halberdiers), several shooters (peasant archers, crossbowmen, heavy crossbowmen, pavise crossbowmen, handgunners, pavise arquebusiers), several heavy units (two handed swordsmen, heavy pavise spearmen, heavy halberdiers), landsknechts from late XVth century (pikemen, halberdiers, two handed swordsmen, arquebusiers), plus swiss, hussite, hungarian mercenaries.

Sounds good.

My questions would be:

- what about the use of the pike. Where there long spearmen type units like the italians had in the XIVth century? Or did germans only really start using pikes in the late XVth century?

That question is kinda difficult to answer due to the vagueness of the medieval terminology. The main infantry weapon was the Spiess (spear), a term which could be used to refer to essentially any polearm that was capable of stabbing and longer than a man, as such it could refer to spears pf various lengths, pikes, awl pikes (Ahlspiesse), earspoon spears (Knebelspiesse), Corseque (Hakenspiesse) and others. Generally, the sources do not specify more precisely what type of weapon was used, but just use the Spiess as a catch all term. Personally, I think that it would make sense to have some sort of two handed spear unit with a mix of these different variants of Spiess, but I am afraid that I there is no more precise information that I am aware of.

Edit: Dismounted knights would also use their lances as make-shift pikes, as they did, for example, at the battle of Sempach.

- what about cavalry. we currently have the Sergeants as medium cavalry/squires, the Ritter as the noble knights and the Duke's Guard. Should there be any other type of cavalry and what would differentiate them from the others

That should probably suffice. You might want to add the Renner as a lighter cavalry unit, but they are probably not essential, as they seem to have dissapeared pretty soon after the mod's start date.

[Wallachian]

Ok, thank you for your insights. I will definetly ask for your insights in regards to the naming of the Austrian units and the split between urban militias/rural militias/feudal units.


Also, would it be possible to help us out with finding characters that should be on the map in 1345 in the area of Germany, Switzerland, Austria? I have done quite a bit of research and have placed several characters. But we have 200 settlements on the map and it is very time consuming. For example, I have spent countless hours in the past few days to find starting characters for a couple of eastern european factions.


For example, this is what I have found for Austria so far:


Albert II Habsburg - Leader - age 47 - Wien, the wife and children should be in Wien as well


Other generals for Austria:


Frederick von Cilli - age 47 - Cilli - count of Cilli, governor of Carniola
Ulrich von Cilli - age 14 - Cilli
Ulrich von Pfannberg - age 58 - St Veit - governor of Carinthia, Marshall of Austria https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_V._(Pfannberg)
Eberhard von Walsee - age 28 - Linz, governor of Upper Austria https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herren...ie_Walsee-Linz
Ulrich von Walsee - age 44 - Gratz - governor of Styria
Johann Ochsenstein - age 14 - Wien
Wilhelm von Montfort - age 30 - St Veit

Also, other known character names that can be diplomat, spy, priest/bishop for Austria


I am looking for general/noble characters (including their age, if not known an estimate is fine) to place in the following settlements:


Trient
Chur
Schwyz
Luzern
Bern
Straubing
Ulm
Konstanz
Stuttgart

We already have the Emperor Ludwig in Munich.

[Knight2708]

Ok, thank you for your insights. I will definetly ask for your insights in regards to the naming of the Austrian units and the split between urban militias/rural militias/feudal units.


Also, would it be possible to help us out with finding characters that should be on the map in 1345 in the area of Germany, Switzerland, Austria? I have done quite a bit of research and have placed several characters. But we have 200 settlements on the map and it is very time consuming. For example, I have spent countless hours in the past few days to find starting characters for a couple of eastern european factions.


For example, this is what I have found for Austria so far:


Albert II Habsburg - Leader - age 47 - Wien, the wife and children should be in Wien as well


Other generals for Austria:


Frederick von Cilli - age 47 - Cilli - count of Cilli, governor of Carniola
Ulrich von Cilli - age 14 - Cilli
Ulrich von Pfannberg - age 58 - St Veit - governor of Carinthia, Marshall of Austria https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ulrich_V._(Pfannberg)
Eberhard von Walsee - age 28 - Linz, governor of Upper Austria https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herren...ie_Walsee-Linz
Ulrich von Walsee - age 44 - Gratz - governor of Styria
Johann Ochsenstein - age 14 - Wien
Wilhelm von Montfort - age 30 - St Veit

Also, other known character names that can be diplomat, spy, priest/bishop for Austria


I am looking for general/noble characters (including their age, if not known an estimate is fine) to place in the following settlements:


Trient
Chur
Schwyz
Luzern
Bern
Straubing
Ulm
Konstanz
Stuttgart

We already have the Emperor Ludwig in Munich.

Okay, I'll see what I can do. Btw I didn't know that that much of Germany was included on the campaign map. Are there any plan to include the HRE as a faction or how will those regions be represented? Also will Tirol and the Habsburg possessions in Swabia and Northern Switzerland be represented on the map?

Here are some characters I found so far, I will edit this list when I find more, but some of these are going to be difficult.

Trient: Prince-Bishop Nikolaus von Brünn (age unknown)
Chur: Prince-Bishop Ulrich V von Lenzburg (age unknown)
Schwyz: Landammann (chief magistrate) Kunrad ab Jberg (age unknown)
Luzern
Bern: Schultheiss (mayor) Johann II von Bubenberg (age roughly 55 years)
Straubing
Ulm
Konstanz: Prince-Bishop Ulrich Pfefferhard (age at least 66 years)
Stuttgart: Eberhard II (age roughly 30 years) and Ulrich IV (age unknown, younger than 30), joint Counts of Württemberg

Other Austrian Characters:
Ortolf von Weißeneck, Prince-Archbishop of Salzburg, (age roughly 45 years)
Eberhard II von Habsburg-Kyburg, Count of Kyburg (age 46)

[Wallachian]

Great! This is a great help! Can you estimate their ages? We need that

Yes, Tyrol is part of the map. I didnt list it as i have already populated most of austria. We have reached settlement limit. In terms of map limits check it here http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...1#post15437200

We have reached the faction limit too so cant add any other factions. And at this point we are focused on having a playable mod.

Currently, most of those settlements are rebel. Would be hard to have HRE as a faction since Austria, Switzerland are technically part of it.

[Elendil 03]

Lucerne: Werner von Gundoldingen (that was a tough one to research)
Straubing: Heinrich III of Schönegg (age around 60, Straubing nominally belonged to the Augsburg cathedral chapter), maybe you can make Albrecht I, Ludwig's son, "come of age" there via script (age 9)
Ulm: Ulrich V of Helfenstein (age around 20)
Remember my comment in the Campaign Map thread? Please, have another look at it. It wouldn't be that much work to implement and much more historically correct.
(Basel: Johann II. von Münsingen (age 37)
Zurich: Rudolf Brun (age around 50))

[Wallachian]

Great! Yes, i do remember your comment. Indeed it would not be too hard to swap Schwyz with Basel or Zurich. I will speak with dcdastro. We cant add a settlement as we are at the limit. But we can replace one with another. The thing with Schwyz is that i wanted an original member of the confederacy in 1345.

[Knight2708]

Great! Yes, i do remember your comment. Indeed it would not be too hard to swap Schwyz with Basel or Zurich. I will speak with dcdastro. We cant add a settlement as we are at the limit. But we can replace one with another. The thing with Schwyz is that i wanted an original member of the confederacy in 1345.

As both Zürich and Basel were not members of the Confederacy in 1345 they would actually have to replace the surrounding cities such as Bern and Konstanz rather than any settlements within the Confederacy iself.

Also, if replacing settlements is on the table I have a suggestion of my own to replace the rebel settlements in Germany to add ones belonging to the Habsburg's Further Austrian possessions in Alsace, Northern Switzerland and Swabia:.
- replacing Strassburg with Ensisheim: Johann I von Hallwyl, Bailiff and Captain of Further Austria in Alsace, the Sundgau and Breisgau, age around 45
- replacing either Ulm or Stuttgart with Laufenburg: Johann II, Count of Habsburg-Laufenburg, age around 15
- and maybe replacing the other one with a city or castle in the Habsburg's Swabian possessions such as Burgau

My reasoning for this is that it would refocus the German areas on the map on the conflict between the Habsburgs and the Swiss which are both full-fledged playable factions. Rather than having several rebel settlements on the farthest edge of the map that are nt really relevant to any of the playable factions, this would focus the region on two proper factions. There also is not that much of a point in these cities being there when the HRE cannot be part of the mod and I think that it is better to use the limited number of city slots for proper factions rather than just having a whole area full of rebel settlements. It also more accurately represents the extent of the Habsburgs' territories and entanglements and gives them settlements that are closer to the Swiss, encouraging their historic conflict rather than having either faction expand northwards into where the rest of the HRE would be.
I don't know how much work this would take and I don't think that it is that important. If you want to focus on finishing the mod without making any further changes to the map, it wouldn't be much of an issue. I just thought I'd throw in some ideas in case you are till still considering making changes.

[Elendil 03]

That's another approach to the topic that I've never taken. Then, on the other hand, what I think you should try to achieve is consistency. There can be either the most important places (like I suggested) or the ones that were relevant for the conflicts portrayed in the mod (that's what Knight said). In this "remote" map section these two don't correlate, so a choice has to be made, and it's a difficult one. On a closer look, I'm not so sure if my proposition is the more favorable.

[Wallachian]

You make some very good points. I think we can definetly incorporate some of these ideas once we release the first beta version of the mod. However, since these cities are in place already our focus is to get a playable version for people to test.

Once that is done I think we should definetly find a working solution to the german situation. Many years ago there was talk of either having Bavaria as a faction or the Holy Roman Empire. The only way to do this would be to remove one of the shadow factions so that fell through (we need at least Serbian shadow to prevent it from becoming a huge blob). But who knows what might happen in future versions.

Also, keep in mind that the rebel settlements will not be like in vanilla. They will be more active and also will be fully stacked up so they will be very hard to occupy.

For the swiss I think we need to find a compromise so to remove Schwyz and replace it with another city which was a lot larger and more important.

We can also use the mechanic of PSFs. So we can have forts which have Austrian troops in them around the Swiss areas and this would definetly trigger Swiss-Austrian wars. And of course there is scripting to try to encourage Swiss-Austrian conflicts. I agree it might not be a bad idea at all to have an actual Austrian settlement in the area of the Swiss to make it even more of a pain in their backside.

How big were Ensisheim, Laufenburg or Burgau?

Having a look at the Habsburg possesisons I think we definetly need to have either a settlement or lots of PSFs with Habsburgs in the Swiss area

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