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Thread: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

  1. #161
    Zmaj od Noćaja's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by Bosnian_King View Post
    Guys,

    I saw that in the attachments of the Serbian faction also the Bosnian coat of arms is included. This is a direct insult towards us as Bosnians. Because we are a big fan community of your mod I think the most logical thing is to delete our coat of arms from the Serbian faction because this suggested that Bosnia is a Serb country and this is the reason why war broke out 17 years ago.

    We are waiting for your response

    Greetings
    I think you have everything wrong Tvrtko considered himself a Serbian, so if you think someone is insulting you by considering Bosnia as part of serbia - take it out with him.

    By the way, Matko - great work!! About weapons - swords - definately, maces too, axes not that comon for Serbian infantry, but there were some medium axemen units. Once again - great stuff!!!
    Last edited by Zmaj od Noćaja; October 26, 2008 at 10:09 AM.

  2. #162
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    the Vlastela heavy cavalry (textures by phoenix[illusion], models by me).
    for more information go to "New units" thread.

  3. #163
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Why are you only deleting my posts, and not his? Bosnia was not a part of Serbia never nor was a Bosnian King Serb.

  4. #164
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    Why are you only deleting my posts, and not his? Bosnia was not a part of Serbia never nor was a Bosnian King Serb.
    he has got a right to express his opinion, even if it is wrong. you went ballistic right away.

  5. #165
    saneel's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    No. In history there is no opinion, only facts. To prove his words, he has no facts. So his post should be deleted like mine and to prove that this subforum isnt one sided.

  6. #166

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    why not edit the first post with pictures?

  7. #167
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    No. In history there is no opinion, only facts. To prove his words, he has no facts. So his post should be deleted like mine and to prove that this subforum isnt one sided.
    facts are subsequent to interpretation.
    Zmaj od Noćaja is not TTW member so he is writing his own opinion. we live in democracy now . his opinions have nothing to do with TTW mod official policy.

    I too personally disagree with Zmaj od Noćaja, but I wont delete someone post just because he is expressing an attitude as long he is not provocative or offending.
    Last edited by Matthæus; October 26, 2008 at 05:16 PM.

  8. #168

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    I agree with @matko. Any one posts should not be deleted without a reason. For sure, this post from @Zmaj od Noćaja was a little provocative but it's not offending too much anyone.

    Now, I will express my opinion trying not to offend or not even to provocate anyone. Refering Bosnian King to a Serb name is totally false. Logically, if he was a Serb he should, then, be called a Serbian King not Bosnian. My "theorem" does not prove anything, it's just a simple logic I use. Further more, how is possible that a Serb King is a Catholic if we know that Bosnian King Tvrtko was a Catholic his entire life. Also, we know for sure that NO Serb ruler (zupan, king, tzar, knez...) was a Catholic or any other faith except Orthodox religion. Does this mean that Serb rulers were also Catholics? This, also, is not a "theorem", it's just a simple logic I use.

    Of course, there are facts said by historians. Here is one said by Serbian historian: "....not in even one of Serbian genealogs (rodoslovi) there is a mentioning of Kotromanic ruler family..." (Sima Cirkovic).

  9. #169
    Sarmatian's Avatar Biarchus
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by saneel View Post
    No. In history there is no opinion, only facts. To prove his words, he has no facts. So his post should be deleted like mine and to prove that this subforum isnt one sided.
    History is not an exact science, so opinions are tolerated. I too personally disagree with Zmaj od Nocaja on a simple basis that nationalism as we know it today didn't exist back then and applying national attributes to that time is pointless. It serves no purposes other than to invate flame wars. I've seen it happen in several other mods and I won't allow it to happen here.

    In the last month or so, nationalism was the driving force for 99% of the posts here. Now, my memory may be a bit rusty but I'm pretty sure it wasn't like that in the beggining. Focus more on TTW and stop trying to bring back the nineties...


  10. #170
    Edwin's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Why was my post deleted??

  11. #171
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    just drop it. you wont prove him anything.

    fact is that Tvrtko was from mixed background (many forgot that his mother was Jelena Šubić) so I could say he was at least half-Croat. His Nemanjic grandmother offered him chance to become king. A title of "King of the Serbs" was a well respected title at the time, unlike the "king of Bosnia", the title he invented (this title earned more prestige later). so reason behind it all was just plain politics. anyway in 1891 he change the title to "by the mercy of God famous King of Rascia, Bosnia, Dalmatia, Croatia, the Seaside..." - and this was after the conquest of Dalmatia. so he was changing the parts of his royal title when it was needed .
    And again: nationality in modern sense did not exist in medieval period.

    anyway all this is not really something that would have an big role in mod. so any more discussions about Tvrtkos blood cells will be considered off topic. At the start of the mod Stipan Tvrtko is just a kid who might have a great future, but it is up to player to make him a great man.

  12. #172

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    I agree with both of you Sarmatian and matko. Not 'cause you are the bosses here , but you are very racional and reasonable. Thank you for that!

  13. #173

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Great work guys!
    kada se bjehmo svadili, tada nas Stjepan Rajkovic umiri i da nam nas grad Bobovac, a neda ga dati Ugrom.

    "And when we were in a quarrel between each other; Stijepan Rajkovic calmed us down. And we entrusted our capital of Bobovac to him after which he defended it against the Hungarians (King Tvrtko I Kotromanic 1366.)"

  14. #174
    Zmaj od Noćaja's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by matko View Post
    facts are subsequent to interpretation.
    Zmaj od Noćaja is not TTW member so he is writing his own opinion. we live in democracy now . his opinions have nothing to do with TTW mod official policy.

    I too personally disagree with Zmaj od Noćaja, but I wont delete someone post just because he is expressing an attitude as long he is not provocative or offending.
    He,he - you disagree?! Well, I know Tvrtko wouldn't disagree, 'cause king of Serbia was only part of his title, and to be that, one needed to prove his relations to Nemanjićs...Young democracies tend to write it's own histories, but you should read some real histories, and Tvrtko's documents and tell me I'm wrong! I'm not writing my opinion, thank you very much, I'm writing REAL HISTORY!!! Read some of Steven Runciman's STUFF, AN ENGLISHMAN, who is eminent historian - he knows balkans and is an expert on Byzantium and Slavs. Then we could talk, and I'm not even going to mention all of Serbian historians...
    Anyway you people from Bosnia - you know you're Slavs, don't you? if you think not, please inform me what are you...
    Anyway, I don't mean to offend anyone by this, but I'm really interested in what you think of Tvrtko's relations to Serbia, what do you learn in schools or universities - who you are (or who you are according to your teachers). So, here - I said my opinion - you tell me yours.

    p.s. I never said Bosnia was Serbia's state, but I do think and know Bosnia consisted of Slavs.

    p.p.s. Respect to you matko for you attitude and democracy, and your work of course, which I think is great.
    Pozdrav!

  15. #175
    Zmaj od Noćaja's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by sportsman81 View Post
    I agree with @matko. Any one posts should not be deleted without a reason. For sure, this post from @Zmaj od Noćaja was a little provocative but it's not offending too much anyone.

    Now, I will express my opinion trying not to offend or not even to provocate anyone. Refering Bosnian King to a Serb name is totally false. Logically, if he was a Serb he should, then, be called a Serbian King not Bosnian. My "theorem" does not prove anything, it's just a simple logic I use. Further more, how is possible that a Serb King is a Catholic if we know that Bosnian King Tvrtko was a Catholic his entire life. Also, we know for sure that NO Serb ruler (zupan, king, tzar, knez...) was a Catholic or any other faith except Orthodox religion. Does this mean that Serb rulers were also Catholics? This, also, is not a "theorem", it's just a simple logic I use.

    Of course, there are facts said by historians. Here is one said by Serbian historian: "....not in even one of Serbian genealogs (rodoslovi) there is a mentioning of Kotromanic ruler family..." (Sima Cirkovic).
    Well your logic is not complete, because you don't know facts, my dear friends. First of all, King Vukan (a title that rulers of zeta had even when they were in Županija raška/Serbia) was son of Stefan Nemanja, and he was catholic. That was one of the reasons he didn't get to be ruler of Raška/Serbia.
    Second - if Tvrtko was catholic, how come he was crowned in Mileševa, at the holy remainings of St Sava? Mileševa was one of the greatest orthodox monasteries in medieval Serbia. How come pope didn't crown him? Another thing, as I said earlier, Tvrtko claimed to be a ruler of Serbia as well, even he wasn't de facto (or de iure). He waged war against Nikola Altomanović with knez Lazar as his ally, so after he sent Lazar aid for battle of Kosovo, an army led by vojvoda (duke) Vlatko Vuković!!! Right after Kosovo battle Tvrtko sent message to Europe he defeated Turks!!!
    Nations as term or meaning didn't even exist in medieval, my friends, the most important thing then was to whom you're paying taxes, and how is that person treating you. Serbia and Bosnia were names of regions at that time, so people got their names according to this.
    So, try to think logically with some facts, it's better, trust me!!

  16. #176

    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Like I said, your first post was little provocative and now it's pretty obvious what is your goal - to discredit Bosnia. I must disappoint you, nineties are over, so you don't stand a chance like any other nationalist or shovinist. If you are not a nationalist or shovinist you will leave this stupid and useless subject and write something useful on Serbian faction for moderators about what this thread is made in the first place, unless you are too stubborn and want to "prove" us all wrong here.

  17. #177
    Matthæus's Avatar Knez Bribirski
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    no one will succeed to convince somebody on the internet forum. so again : I don't want a discussion about this and I will start deleting posts again.

  18. #178
    Zmaj od Noćaja's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Quote Originally Posted by sportsman81 View Post
    Like I said, your first post was little provocative and now it's pretty obvious what is your goal - to discredit Bosnia. I must disappoint you, nineties are over, so you don't stand a chance like any other nationalist or shovinist. If you are not a nationalist or shovinist you will leave this stupid and useless subject and write something useful on Serbian faction for moderators about what this thread is made in the first place, unless you are too stubborn and want to "prove" us all wrong here.
    No man, i'm not provocating anyone, nor I meant to offend anyone. I said what I thought, and since here we have democracy - i want to hear another side. I don't wish do discredit Bosnia (how can truth be discriminating?!), I said some history facts.
    By the way I am a nationalist, and proud of it, but that doesn't mean I have anything against any other state or people - I simply love Serbia first. if someone has a problem with me loving my country, well he can go to, let's say hell.
    Nationalist isn't the same as shovinist, not nazist, so let's try to be most precise with terms here.
    I would have said much about Serbia, but since you guys from Bosnia (especially one who's proud to be muslim) constantly talked about this - I had to interfere. We don't want to have one sided story here, do we?
    I wish best of luck to you and all other Bosnians, even though there are (almost) no Serbs today in Bosnia...

  19. #179
    The Noble Lord's Avatar Holy Arab Nation
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    Great work Matko, truly beautiful. Just keep up the good work. And for Altomanovica family Coat of Arms, should be coming in any day now. Its definite. It will be posted immediately!

    And others please, discussion on history and military history of the Balkans from THE MEDIEVAL period belongs in here. Politics and nationalism however, GO TO ANOTHER FORUM!!!


    CHEERS
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    KOSOVO IS SERBIA!!!
    Under the proud patronage of the magnificent Tzar


  20. #180
    Zmaj od Noćaja's Avatar Miles
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    Default Re: Faction - Tsardom of Serbia

    That's right!!

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