Faction - Banate of Bosnia

[The Noble Lord]

Bobovac was seat of power in medieval Bosnia, Kraljeva Sutjeska was equally important. I don't know why would Visoko be named as the medieval capitol of Bosnia??

[Bartholomaios Sklabos]

From what I could read here from dr. Enver Imamović's book, I'd say it is unlikely that he is the most credible source. He does not seem to know much about western knightly class in general when he suggests that they learned their trade solely in jousts. Feudal warfare was as common in the West as in our beloved SE Europe/Balkans. And chronicles of high and late medieval era are always praising the knightly class - even (or even more so) if they come from other parts of Europe (that is: non-French or German). Some other chronicler would say very similar things about spanish, scottish, polish, german, hungarian etc. knights.

Bosanska vojska nije bila placenicka vojska,kao sto je to bio slucaj u vecini ostalih evropskih zemalja.Njenu okosnicu su cinili Banski,odnosno Kraljevski odredi,koji su cinili stalnu vojsku,a u slucaju rata bila je cast ali i duznost svakog Bosnjaka da pristupi Bosanskoj vojsci.

Despite romantic ideals of military efficiancy and loyaliy of militia of free citizens or peasants in the battlefields, the mercenaries were the most tested and probably reliable force in the battlefield (if properly paid of course).
Even the Swiss perfected their trade in Italian employment. And in late middle ages every bigger army was partially also mercenary army (except of feudal troops and their supporters).

I admit that I don't know much about Bosnian military affairs in middle ages, but I doubt that Bosnian goverment was centralised to a point, that it could ensure its own standing army. Of course I don't deny the existence of smaller detachments of troops that supported the central power of medieval rulers ( such as the abovementioned "banski odredi"). However I'd be careful not to exaggerate their size too much.

[The Noble Lord]

From what I could read here from dr. Enver Imamović's book, I'd say it is unlikely that he is the most credible source.

I agree, with all due respect to dr. Enver Imamovic, he is considered to be very bias in his interpretations of history and his views are very politicized
and one sided. His record is just not good enough and that undermines his credibility. I would not take his books and articles as basis for something historical. There are much better and far objective sources then his.


CHEERS

[saneel]

Ou yea,which one? From those people who even are not Bosnian?

[The Noble Lord]

No, but those historians that are genuine and unbiased in their views on history and historical events. Not those that embarrassed themselves with their views on others and making fantastic and nonsensical statements.
Unfortunately, dr. Enver Imamovic did such a thing on numerous occasions.

[Matthæus]

some things I have collected over the time(from my previous posts)on other subforums(note that most of information it is a books about Croatian history but informations are excellent):

Equipment and armour of Bosnian and Croatian vlastela

Vojvoda (duke) Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić


ilumination in Hrvoje's missal

text from: Hrvatski ratnici kroz stoljeća (Croatian warriors trough the centories), by Tomislav Aralica (some changes by me + i found more visual sources about the equipment)

sources:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Ferdo Šišić, Vojvoda Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić i njegovo doba
Josip Horvat, Kultura Hrvata kroz 100 godina, I svezak
Francasco Rossi, Medieval Arms and Armour
Ivo Petricoli, Umjetnička obrada drveta u Zadru u doba gotike
Ewart Oakeskott, European Weapoms and Armour
Bruno Thomas, Orwitin Gamber, Katalog der Leibrustkammer
Ivo Bojanovski: Stari grad Maglaj
Ćiro Truhelka: Osvrt na srednovjećne spomenike Bosne
Đurđica Petrović: Uloga Dubrovnika u snabdijevanju srednjovjekovne Bosne oružjem; Magister Johannes -Zoanne oklopar Dubrovačke Republike

RECONSTRUCTIONS OF HRVOJE'S ARMOUR

1.Vušić

2.Aralica


English translation: (sorry my English is a bit rough)

Duke Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić beginning of 15th century

I.Historical context

Hrvoje Vukčić Hrvatinić (cca 1350-1416), one of most important personality of Croatian and Bosnian history, was a participant of vary turbulent events in the end of 14.th and the beginning of 15.th century, events which consequences we feel even today. After the death of the powerful Hungarian king Louis I. Anjou, all lands of Crown of st.Stephen shattered by confrontation. Bosnia under Tvrtko I.is expanding rapidly and is almost independent, and after his death mighty feudal lords take power , amongst H.V. Hrvatinić was the strongest.

His family lands were in Donji kraji, area around river Vrbas with center in u town of Jajce. Hrvoje expanded his possessions, so in time of his greatest power they spread from Zadar hinterland to river Neretva, and from Splita to Dubica district (Dubička županija). After a plat to bring Ladislav of Napules
on Hungarian throne failed (Hrvoje really wanted, and tried that) his power is slowly in decline. In the moment of the greatest crisis he asks Ottomans for help and they, 1415, for first time come in western parts. One detachment even goes as far as Zagreb. In the battle near Doboj, together with legendary Isak-beg, Hrvoje destroys Sigismund's (of Luxemburg) army.According to a legend he sews up i and drowns in Bosna river his personal enemy, Hungarian noble Pavao Čupor (his name in Hungarian =?). Hrvoje's alliance with Ottomans made their expansion easier. Bosnian kingdom fall easily under Ottomans 1463.

II. Equipment: arms and armour

In famous "Hrvoje's glagolic missal", which is today situated in Istanbul, is a miniature of Hrvoje in knight's armor on horse. Missal originates from between 1403. and 1415. It is believed that it is illustrated by a dalmatian artist, maybe from Split, who was under influence of Tuscan illuminators. Miniature is relatively detailed and is unique and for certain represents duke himself.

In the picture H. has full plate armour which was very modern at that time. Plate armour is in development during 14th. century staring with modest plate-like additions to mail armour. Gradually this anatomically shaped plates cover whole or almost whole knight's body. First such plate armours appear around year 1380. From then and through next several centuries full armour is transforming fast, because of improved protection and, and influence of fashion demands. These armours, of course, were reserved exclusively for nobles which fought as heavy cavalry, while most luxurious specimens were made for kings and high feudal lords. There were armours for lower society class, but that is a whole different story.

Of three significant pictorial sources of various plate armours in Croatia, oldest is one of saint Chrysogonus on wooden choir in Franciscan church in Zadar. It was made by Venetian artist Ivan, son of Jakov de Borgio Sansesepoclroa. This armour oklop is still rudimentary and has no back plate while front plate is attached with 2 crossed belts. Upper arm is protected with simple plates, and there is no protective plate for shoulders. Second armour is belonging to Hrvoje, and in comparison with before mentioned presents an extraordinary progress. Hrvoje's armour is decorated along edges of individual
plates. On miniature that are just yellow fields. If we compare them with several conserved exemplars original armour, which very few remains and only in few worlds biggest museums, we can conclude that these
are applied brass stripes. On them are sentences of religious content written with Gothic letters. Third pictorial source is je stone statue of Orlando from Dubrovnik made in 1414. Orlando wears perfected type of pectoral armour which comprises of 2 segments. Upper retracts into lower ant that allows knight better flexibility. Also it has ima better protection of lower part of abdomen in form of steel "skirt" which is comprised of several rims. That kind of armour is produced in the middle of 15 century, and is in literature known as armour in style of Friedrich the Victorious.

According to iconographic customs of time H. is shown without helmet on his head, although helmet is part of knight armour. In the end of 14th. and the beginning of 15th. century in Europe most common type of knight helmet was so-called bascinet with hinged visor. After discarding of great helm from use, bascinet remains only protection of knights head, and becuse of that becomes more deeper and pointed in design and gets hinged visor. In Bosnia in castle of Maglaj and near Sarajevo, there were found archaeological remains of 4 bascinet with visor.

In preserved documents from 14.th and 15.th century is many data about supply of arms to Bosnian feudal lords. Arms were mostly acquired from Venice i Dubrovnik. In Dubrovnik were, in that period, craftsman which made armours, but they mostly made armours for city garrisons and ship crews. So we can conclude that Hrvoje's armour is probably of Italian origin.

-more about equipment-

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Lance - note the lance is smaller than in Medieval 2 - according to Bertradon de la Brocquerie a French knight who spent some time at Hungarian court - only 3.5 meters long.
Shield-it is probably of typical Hungarian design like in "Gesta Hungarorum".
like this:



saint Chrysogonus on wooden choir in Franciscan church in Zadar



some helmets found in Maglaj



Orlando's column from Dubrovnik


earlier Vukčić coat of arms

[Bosnian_King]

I agree, with all due respect to dr. Enver Imamovic, he is considered to be very bias in his interpretations of history and his views are very politicized
and one sided. His record is just not good enough and that undermines his credibility. I would not take his books and articles as basis for something historical. There are much better and far objective sources then his.


CHEERS

Altough I am a Bosnian I agree with you. This text IS politized. But the part of the text I translated couldn't be politizized because it exist in old books. When the polish writer wrties about the Bosnian knights; that really exists and we can see the source where we can find this exactly.

greetings

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No, but those historians that are genuine and unbiased in their views on history and historical events. Not those that embarrassed themselves with their views on others and making fantastic and nonsensical statements.
Unfortunately, dr. Enver Imamovic did such a thing on numerous occasions.

True but he did also some good work:;

1: He discovered in an old document from an archive that a Bosnian Ban is mentioned in 968. when king Kresimir attacks Bosnia. This means that Bosnia already then was a Banate.
2 He ducumented the family tree of the Bosnian kings and it is reliable because all the sources he used are documented as well. He did this job for 25 years and he searched whole europe from Spain to Ireland. We now know the names and the date of birth and mortal of the whole dinasty (exept from some of them) and even the phisical appearing of 14 Bosnian kings/queens are known now. He all put this together on this poster:

http://www.dubrovniknet.hr/Slike1/kotromanici.jpg

And he wrote a book about this project.

In Bosnia exists the mentality between Bosnian historians to romantize the Bogumils. This is part of the Bosnian national miths. All nations do this. But some work Imamovic did could not be wrong because we got the sources.
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Matko,

The game begins with the Bosnian Banate in 1350. Bosnian transformes from a banate to a kingdom in 1353. when Tvrtko I comes on the Bosnian throne. Will Bosnia be called a kingdom from that period? If not i think it will be a real pitty. A Bosnian banate in 1530. would be a shame because Bosnia was the most powerful kingdom on the balkans from 1353- 1391. Please can you answer this question for us?

Thank you in advance :original:
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This povelja gives us so much information useful for the game:

POVELJA GRGURU STIPANIĆU IZ 1323 GODINE - BAN STJEPAN II KOTROMANIĆ

Godine 1323


Az,Sveti Grgur,a zovom Ban Stipan,po milosti Božijoj gospodin svim zemljam` Bosanskim : i Solskim i Usorskim i Donjim krajem i Humskoj zemlji gospodin,i brat moj Vladislav:
Dasva Knezu Grguru velikomu Stipaniću milost svoju vi,naju viru i dušu,dasva mu prvo Čečavu,drugu Hrastuš,treće Une na više Jakeša,četvrto Volović,peto Modrič.
Toj mu damo za njegovu virnu službu tada - kada ga poslasmo prid našimi vlasteli po gospoju,po moju,Caru Bu(ga)rskomu.I u tom nam posluži pravo i virno.
I ja,Ban Stipan,s bratom mojim,s Knezom s Vladislavom,taj sela naju dasv` Knezu Grguru Stipaniću u vike vikom,i njegovu ostalomu - da mu se to ne poreče nikadare,ni njemu ni njegovu ostalome,što bi ga ne opitala Crkva Bosanska. A se pisa Pribisav,dijak Bana Stipana - koji držaše od Save do mora,od Cetine do Drine...

[Bosnian_King]

Bosnian sword:



source:
http://public.carnet.hr/hpm/p0180002.htm

[Bosnian_King]

In an old archive a half year ago was found that a Bosnian Ban was mentioned in 968. The most appreciated Croatians historian Nada Klaic (main proffesor of the Zagreb university) who died in 1989. wrote the following words : "It could easely be that Bosnia was the oldest middle age state of the balkans"

[Matthæus]

Ali-G - this is not "who has the biggest" type of conversation.

[Bosnian_King]

Dear matko,

This is the website of the modern Bosnian church, Crkva Bosanksa. It was founded in 2002 and it is some kind of renesasance of the old Bosnian religion. May be you can use that logo altough I think the logo I posted you earlier is historical more correct. I think these guys made this logo by their own but I am not sure of that. May be that logo really was the logo of the krscani/bogumili/patareni in the medieval Bosnian states.


http://www.crkvabosanska.net



Bosnian krstjan church:

http://bp2.blogger.com/_ybSQeWxYLE0/...0/DSCN3153.JPG


Pozdrav

[Adnan]

That sheep is holding cross. And cross isnt symbol of Krstjani.

[Bosnian_King]

That sheep is holding cross. And cross isnt symbol of Krstjani.

off course it is. Hahaha...

[Adnan]

off course it is. Hahaha... Ne blamiraj se jarane.

Well im not history expert but from debate in this thread I think its not correct symbol. And last part wasnt necessary..."jarane"...

[Matthæus]

I have a small request for all you Bosnian fans. nothing i couldn't do myself but you could save me time.

so if you want to help-
i have an good collection of coats of arms of nobility from Bosnia, but i forgot to sort them. so I basically need them sorted out in 2 categories. one before year 1400 and one after 1400. "before 1400" meaning that the coat of arms of the family or person that uses the coat of arms exist (meaning not that they have living members but also that they play some role in history) before year 1400.

so put all heraldry that you can find here, and:
1. write me when did coat of arms appear and when was it used (at least approximately).
2. note if any coat of arms belonged to lower nobility

this is important because i will need 2 sets of shields - one for "early" and one for "late" units. and light cavalry units will have coa's of lower nobility (along with some non heradric symbols), while heavy cavalry only of magnates.

[Adnan]

Maybe I should start with some:

Čihorići su bili u XV. stoljeću jedna od znamenitijih porodica u predjelima između Neretve i Kotorskog zaljeva. Na nadgrobnom spomeniku u Veličanima (Popovo Polje) spominju se svi Čihorići: Nenac, Vlatko, Dabiživ i Stjepko. Na spomeniku piše da su živjeli « u dane kralja Tvrtka «. Nenac je bio kaznec (blagajnik), Vlatko župan, Dabiživ sluga ( dvorjanik ), a Stjepko Tepćija (nadglednik nad službom).



Velmože Dinjičići imali su posjede u istočnoj Bosni oko Srebrenice. Od ove plemićke obitelji spominju se u bosanskim poveljama od 1399 do 1421 ovi velikaši: Dinjičić Kovač uz kralja Ostoju. Dinjičić Dragiša kao knez od Podrinja uz kralja Stjepana Tomu i Tvrtka II i Dinjičić Vladislav uz kralja Tvrtka II. Posljednji od roda Dinjičića spominje se godine 1442 Kovač Dinjičić na čelu 600 do 700 konjanika u obrani Bosne. Njegovi potomci nazivaju se Kovačevići.

[Bosnian_King]

Matko,

What about a heavily armed Bosnian unit? It would be nice if we had some knight unit with horse and a west-european armor. I think it would be nice if we had some good bosnian cavalary unit as a bonus unit or "best unit". It would be great to see this unit equiped something like this:

http://garevac.net/sadrzaj/tekst/Pec...a%20Tvrtka.jpg

http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/3...ukcichrno1.jpg

http://matoweb.com/Gallery/albums/al...Tvrtko_003.jpg

http://img511.imageshack.us/img511/3097/bosnjakif9.jpg

May be we ask too much but I think it will be interesting to see the Bosnians have this heavy ("national") unit with the lilly simbol, "ljlilanka" on their shield. Because Tvrtko, Ostoja, Dabisa, Tomas and Tomasevic all used this simbol with the 6 lillies on their shield it would be great if these heavily Bosnian units would be some kind of king's units, elite units which are in close contact with the king, his guard and not under command of Bosnian plemici (influant families). This should be the unit which the king also sends to the enemy to "break through". A cavelery unit with long weapons (I don't know how they call them) like on the first link above or swords like on the last link. Let me know what you think about this idea. So in short: We would like to see a Bosnian knight under command of the king and with the king simbol on their shield and horse (6 lillies on blue background), armed with a long weapon or a sword and heavy armor.

http://www-bib.hive.no/tekster/skill...org/ridder.jpg

http://mediatheek.thinkquest.nl/~kla027/RidderPaard.jpg



Good luck!

[Matthæus]

since you guys are such an faithul audience i will tell phoenix do do you a favor and skin the vlastela unit. he is doing the skins for Serbian vlastela at the moment, so making another set of skins for Bosnia wont be much trouble. other than that i don't have skinned units and i dont think it is a good idea to post pictures of unskinned models.

about bosnian units
like i said some time ago. most of units will be generic (like handgunner,crossbowmen,spearman and so on). there will be aditional archer unit (like the carvings on the stecaks), and an additional light cavalry unit. heavy cavalry units will be called vlastela and vitezovi. booth units will share models with their Serbian counterparts. they will wear italian armour.

[Bosnian_King]

Thanks a lot! What about the name "Dobri Bosnjani" you said one of the Bosnian units will get?

[Matthæus]

Matko,
May be we ask too much but I think it will be interesting to see the Bosnians have this heavy ("national") unit with the lilly simbol, "ljlilanka" on their shield. Because Tvrtko, Ostoja, Dabisa, Tomas and Tomasevic all used this simbol with the 6 lillies on their shield it would be great if these heavily Bosnian units would be some kind of king's units, elite units which are in close contact with the king, his guard and not under command of Bosnian plemici (influant families). This should be the unit which the king also sends to the enemy to "break through". A cavelery unit with long weapons (I don't know how they call them) like on the first link above or swords like on the last link. Let me know what you think about this idea. So in short: We would like to see a Bosnian knight under command of the king and with the king simbol on their shield and horse (6 lillies on blue background), armed with a long weapon or a sword and heavy armor.

"heavy ("national") unit with the lilly simbol" = the bodyguard unit (of course we will have think of better name than just "bodyguards"). i dont ee a problem here every faction im mtw2 has a bodyguard unit accompaning the king and royal family members.

nobles = vlastela and knights units. they will have symbols of various noble families on shields and clothes (and not the "state (lilly) symbol")