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Thread: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

  1. #1

    Default Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble
    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,291041,00.html
    Sunday, July 29, 2007
    By James Sherk

    Supporters of the latest minimum-wage hike have the best of intentions. They want the higher minimum wage to lift low-income families out of poverty — but that doesn’t change where the road paved with good intentions leads. The increase will actually harm the very workers it’s intended to help.

    Raising the minimum wage seems an obvious way to help low-income workers. Their wages go up and they earn more money. How could raising the minimum wage possibly hurt them?

    Because the workers who will earn the new minimum wage after it rises are not the same workers who earned the old minimum wage before it went up. Since it costs more to hire workers, employers will hire fewer of them. And they will change who they hire for the positions they keep.

    If the government forces companies to pay higher wages, more skilled and productive workers will apply for their positions. Given the choice between hiring an unskilled worker and one with more experience, companies virtually always hire the more productive employee. Employers will replace many of the unskilled workers who work for the minimum wage today with more skilled workers who would have earned more than $5.15 an hour regardless.

    Many economic studies demonstrate that employers respond in exactly this manner. Outside the dry world of academic journals, this means that welfare recipients trying to get off the dole, new immigrants who speak little English, and inner-city minority teenagers from disadvantaged backgrounds have a much harder time finding jobs. These workers tend to lack jobs skills that make them attractive employees.

    Given a choice between hiring a middle-class college student or a minority teenager who goes to an inner-city public school, employers will hire the college student if both will work for the same wage. Raising the minimum wage by 50 percent also raises the probability that teenage African-American high-school dropouts will lose their jobs by over 25 percent.

    As a result, research consistently shows that higher minimum wages do not reduce poverty. Most of the benefits go to suburban teenagers or college students, not those who actually need help. While some low-income workers get a raise, many others lose their jobs.

    Putting unskilled employees out of work hardly helps them. Worse, though, is the way the lack of job opportunities makes it harder for these employees to gain the skills necessary to get ahead in the market place.

    Minimum-wage jobs are entry-level positions. Few workers who start out at minimum wage stay there. Over time, they demonstrate their reliability and gain valuable skills such as how to interact productively with customers, or accept direction from the boss. This makes them more valuable and earns them raises. Two-thirds of minimum-wage workers earn a raise within a year.

    When the minimum wage rises, it saws off the bottom rung of the career ladder for many unskilled workers. They become less attractive to hire at the higher wages, so they miss the opportunity to gain valuable work skills and earn raises. A policy designed to help them leaves them in poverty. Past increases in the minimum wage have hurt the earnings and job prospects of unskilled workers over a decade after they passed for precisely this reason. Many unskilled workers were denied the ability to get on-the-job-training with a minimum-wage job and were left playing catch-up when they finally did find an entry-level job.

    They may mean well. But supporters of the new minimum-wage hike have hurt the low-income workers they wanted to help.

    In my opinion a well thought out and well written article about the dangers of limiting the free market.
    "I have need to be all on fire, for I have mountains of ice about me to melt." -William Lloyd Garrison

    "The end may justify the means as long as there is something that justifies the end." -Leon Trotsky

  2. #2
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Ah yes lets return to the guilded age! WHere peolpe were turned into debt slaves! Yay Libertarianism!
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  3. #3

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    The truth is to be blunt Americans are just too stupid when it comes to handling money. I read about American families who make over $100000/year and still fall into debt. I was like what the ****?!? No matter how much the minimum wage is raised it wont matter so long as you do not know how to manage your finance.

    Even the bike repairman close to where I live in my third world country who makes about $1500/year and has quite a few kids recently managed to buy a house that cost tens of thousands in dollars after saving for decades.


    "When one person suffers from a delusion it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called religion." -- Robert Pirsig

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  4. #4

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Minimum wage is a simple necessity to prevent modern nations turning into Dickensian nightmares. If anything the minimum wage in America needs to be increased.

  5. #5
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    But that impairs freedom! You Fascist!
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  6. #6

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    In the broadest sense of the word it most certainly does. But so does legislation telling people they can't dump industrial waste into rivers, raise fighting dogs called Bull's Eye or operate a gang of lovable theiving street urchins.

  7. #7

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    What happens when the company reduce the cost wages down too illegals immigrants? What happens when the company decides too make them work like slaves.

  8. #8
    Sosobra's Avatar Domesticus
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by jankren View Post
    The truth is to be blunt Americans are just too stupid when it comes to handling money. I read about American families who make over $100000/year and still fall into debt. I was like what the ****?!? No matter how much the minimum wage is raised it wont matter so long as you do not know how to manage your finance.

    Even the bike repairman close to where I live in my third world country who makes about $1500/year and has quite a few kids recently managed to buy a house that cost tens of thousands in dollars after saving for decades.
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    I find most people irritating
    SteamID:Sosobra

  9. #9

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Sosobra View Post
    Sweeping inaccurate generalizations for the win,
    To be fair he is Indonesian. (just joking)

  10. #10

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnum View Post
    What happens when the company reduce the cost wages down too illegals immigrants? What happens when the company decides too make them work like slaves.
    They'll be sent to prison, of course.

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    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Is it a coinidence that unemployment has been rising in the USA since the minimum wage increase of last year? Unemployment is now at 5%.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  12. #12

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Is it a coinidence that unemployment has been rising in the USA since the minimum wage increase of last year? Unemployment is now at 5%.
    Do you not think this may have more to do with the Bush administration's poor domestic and economic management? Can you provide us with examples of American businesses which had to fire employees because the higher minimum wage made them impossible to support?

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Minimum wage is a necessity in a developed nation. You can't have a situation in which family bread-winners are working for less than a druggo earns on the dole. If a man is willing to work, he must earn more than a person who is not willing to. Hence minimum wage must be higher than dole payments.

    And remember inflation (that was an edit)

  14. #14
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    Do you not think this may have more to do with the Bush administration's poor domestic and economic management?
    Tax cuts were very good for the economy, excessive spending bad. Deregulation is some areas were good, increased reguation in other areas was bad. It doesn't help either to have hostile class warfare rhetoric coming from Democrats like Hillary Clinton and John Edwards. Their words have a chilling effect business decisions.

    Can you provide us with examples of American businesses which had to fire employees because the higher minimum wage made them impossible to support?

    Yes, my wife's business. She's has trimmed 2 from the staff because of wage pressure from the increased minimum wage. While none of our employees were/are paid minimum wage, the minimum wage exerts in an upward wage pressure on low skill labor.

    Minimum wage is a necessity in a developed nation. You can't have a situation in which family bread-winners are working for less than a druggo earns on the dole. If a man is willing to work, he must earn more than a person who is not willing to. Hence minimum wage must be higher than dole payments.
    Why would any bread winner even bother to work for a wage less than the public dole? That wouldn't make sense. Welfare and charity create idleness.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; January 05, 2008 at 06:42 AM.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  15. #15

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    So the minimum wage increase did not effect your business which had no minimum wage employees, and rather than continue paying your normal rate, which you could have easily done, you fired two people? What?

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    Why would any bread winner even bother to work for a wage less than the public dole? That wouldn't make sense. Welfare and charity create idleness.
    Believe me, it has happened in Australia. A man works for his family, and yet when a dole-bludging couple with kids do nothing they end up with more expendable income.

  17. #17
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    With the atrifical increase in wages we had to increase pay to keep our best people and the marginal people had to go to make up for the increased wages.

    You see the only way to real way to justify an increased wage is for that increased wage to buy more production. Our best people are getting paid more, but are doing more work. The minimum wage didn't really help them, as they are still getting paid the same for the unit of work. It hurt our less productive people, since their production no long exceeded their cost.

    Quote Originally Posted by boofhead View Post
    Believe me, it has happened in Australia. A man works for his family, and yet when a dole-bludging couple with kids do nothing they end up with more expendable income.
    Well that would fit with the idea that poor is synomous with dumb.
    Last edited by Big War Bird; January 05, 2008 at 06:55 AM.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

  18. #18

    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    That's the free market, Big War Bird, not the minimum wage. If you want the best employees you must pay appropriate wages. You had no minimum wage employees, so your case is not relevent.

  19. #19
    Big War Bird's Avatar Vicarius Provinciae
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Ferrets54 View Post
    That's the free market, Big War Bird, not the minimum wage. If you want the best employees you must pay appropriate wages. You had no minimum wage employees, so your case is not relevent.
    You just are not getting it are you? A minimum wages is not "free market", it is a market restriction. It drives up the cost of labor without increasing productivity. It squeezes out of the ranks of the employeed people that are less productive. If you really wanted to help the poorest people, we would abolish the minimum wage. That way people whose labor output is very low could more easily find employment. With employment they would gain job skills, therefore increasing their productivity and the wage they can command.
    As a teenager, I was taken to various houses and flats above takeaways in the north of England, to be beaten, tortured and raped over 100 times. I was called a “white slag” and “white ****” as they beat me.

    -Ella Hill

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    boofhead's Avatar Dux Limitis
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    Default Re: Minimum Wage, Maximum Trouble

    Quote Originally Posted by Big War Bird View Post
    That way people whose labor output is very low could more easily find employment.
    Yeah. Then maybe they could move out of their cardboard box into a metallic wheelie bin and live on noodles and soup mix and feed their kids the leftovers.

    BWB - a humane society looks after its weakest.

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