View Poll Results: What do you think would happen?

Voters
36. You may not vote on this poll
  • (if president says yes) Non-Black taxpayers Revolt

    1 2.78%
  • (if president says no) African Americans Revolt

    3 8.33%
  • President and Non-Black Nation IGNORE the Request

    31 86.11%
  • The Government lowers the reparations money and mass rioting

    1 2.78%
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Thread: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

  1. #41
    Centurion-Lucius-Vorenus's Avatar Protector Domesticus
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    I would like to point out ron paul's incorrect assumption,

    This is woefully incorrect. In a free society, people that are similar (speaking the same language/dialect, looking the same, ect) always group together. This happens even within the limited confines of schools. The "cool" kids group together, while the "smart kids" group together and so on and so on.

    Without active government (or other, sometimes people do it on their own) integration steps, people will retreat into their similar groups. It is not nations but people, or rather groups made of individuals, that create racial tensions.
    A more correct observation would of been In a free society, the Intelligent and wise gain a sense of themselves, while the rest just fall into the dregs of marketing schemes.

  2. #42
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    A more correct observation would of been In a free society, the Intelligent and wise gain a sense of themselves, while the rest just fall into the dregs of marketing schemes.
    These mythical intelligent and wise people have themselves fallen into the trap. Intelligent people, also known as the 'rich' or 'educated' continuously form their own groups based on their similarities.

    However, I have totally overlooked the people who retreat from society, or the crazy.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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  3. #43

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    I would like to point out ron paul's incorrect assumption,
    In a free society, people that are similar (speaking the same language/dialect, looking the same, ect) always group together.
    ...so far, since this is all we know, our generation going back to the last 500 (and more) years are grown up in racism.
    people will retreat into their similar groups. It is not nations but people, or rather groups made of individuals, that create racial tensions.
    Racial tensions are due to the fact, that racism - whether we like it or not- is already initiated from kindergarten and up. From home of the parents and the schools are still advocating racism, many times passively. A black kid grown up in a black neighborhood in a weaker financial situation automatically gets a minority complexity when he sees a white kid with better shoes. This goes all the way up to adulthood. By just simply learning about Africa and its situation already advocates racism, since most people associate Africa with Blacks.
    I have seen it and experienced it, that black kids with richer parents (same level as ordinary white parents) mix up much easier (don't feel left out) in an ethnically diverse school.

    I also completely disagree with the colleges encouraging black kids to be in sports. Having various "College football" and especiall "college basketball" teams with the invisible (but appearant) slogan of "This is What Blacks Do" is terrible.
    Concentrating on nothing but sports draws time away from real studying and not to mention the fact, that colleges and Universities were not created to make professional sportsmen as the main goal. This is nothing but an american invention.

    Blacks should be encouraged to learn the "white" stuff, the Western History and teach them that this is not "acting white", because today's "whites" have little to do (beside some being very distant descendants) with what happened in History 500 or 5000 years ago.
    Last edited by HorseArcher; December 30, 2007 at 11:59 PM.

  4. #44

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahir View Post
    I'm afraid this one is an AMERICAN issue.
    Dahir, do you have any right to speak on this issue? Are you black? Are you a journalist, a politician, a scientist, a historian? No.

    Most members of TWC have no real authoirty to speak on anything; yet we do. Why? Because we can. So I can tell you, as an Australian who has never met an African-American, who has never visited America, and is certainly not a politician, journalist, historian, or scientist, that your idea is utter bollocks.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burnum View Post
    ]Yeah, according too government policy we weren't human. We were more like Kangaroos and galahs too the white government, we treated worse than the sheep.
    I thought you were treated like children (Paternalism and all that)?

    I admit I'm not very knowledgeable in this area, though I did spend a Term of Year 12 studying it. Indigenous Australians were treated terribly, and still are in many places.

    You may recall Mal Brough sending the army to deal with child neglect and abuse in the NT. Idiot. What a complete :wub:. The ARMY?

    After 200 years of white settlement, and 40 years of equality (at least on paper) the Australian government should be able to handle indigenous affairs, yet they can't. It's pathetic.


  5. #45

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by ~The Doctor~ View Post
    After 200 years of white settlement, and 40 years of equality (at least on paper) the Australian government should be able to handle indigenous affairs, yet they can't. It's pathetic.
    In my humble opinion, there will always be inequalities. My country(USA) was built upon freedom, equality, etc., yet there are still many inequalities within the country. There is hope for change, but in large countries true equality is unattainable. There can only be compromise that gets the minority some rights while keeping the majority satisfied.
    I admire your luck, Mr...?

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  6. #46

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    I thought you were treated like children (Paternalism and all that)?
    we were treated like animals. You look at the standard of the reserves and missions, you wouldn't let your dog live like that. People dying of diseases that were eradicated from the west. You also got keep in mind that different states and territories had different policies. Paternalism is least part, besides, Stolen generation was racially motivated.

    I admit I'm not very knowledgeable in this area, though I did spend a Term of Year 12 studying it. Indigenous Australians were treated terribly, and still are in many places.
    under Howard Civil rights for Aboriginals went back twenty years. Yeah, I did Aboriginal studies for my HSC.

    You may recall Mal Brough sending the army to deal with child neglect and abuse in the NT. Idiot. What a complete :wub:. The ARMY?
    He's tried too strong arm the communities in the Northern Territory. It frightened people who did not understand, most of those people can't speak English. It made the situation than it was.


    After 200 years of white settlement, and 40 years of equality (at least on paper) the Australian government should be able to handle indigenous affairs, yet they can't. It's pathetic.
    We're sadly not equal by any standards. Health, legal representation, Education, counseling ect. Aboriginal communities are third world communities in a first world and that's not acceptable.


  7. #47
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by ~The Doctor~ View Post
    Dahir, do you have any right to speak on this issue? Are you black? Are you a journalist, a politician, a scientist, a historian? No.

    Most members of TWC have no real authoirty to speak on anything; yet we do. Why? Because we can. So I can tell you, as an Australian who has never met an African-American, who has never visited America, and is certainly not a politician, journalist, historian, or scientist, that your idea is utter bollocks.
    Yeah, actually, I AM BLACK!! Which gives me the authority and the background to dish out what others have no experience of, period.

    I hope that solves everything.


  8. #48

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahir View Post
    Yeah, actually, I AM BLACK!! Which gives me the authority and the background to dish out what others have no experience of, period.

    I hope that solves everything.
    Ah, I see.

    You just want a government handout.


  9. #49
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by ~The Doctor~ View Post
    Ah, I see.

    You just want a government handout.
    At the expense of evil hardworking non-Black Americans, yes.


  10. #50

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahir View Post
    At the expense of evil hardworking non-Black Americans, yes.
    Yes, but what exactly entitles you to it? Your ancestors being slaves 150 years ago?

    In that respect, I need to call on the British, Scandinavian, German, and Italian governments for mis-treatment of my ancestors.


  11. #51
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Nah, you can just go become a willing slave to a nameless major corporation like the rest of us.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

    ~Sidmen, Member of the House of Wilpuri, Patronized by pannonian

  12. #52
    Freddie's Avatar The Voice of Reason
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahir View Post
    Say the nearly 40 million African Americans in this country were to ask for reparations of $20,000 per family unit (this would be concluded based on tax forms).

    What do you think the outcome would be?

    Keep in mind, the Japanese got the same payment after world war 2. Also, keep in mind I'm creating a scenario whereby an organized body of powerful African Americans and a strong following base, makes this request -- no, they demand reparations!
    So would that include families of mixed race?

    This has to be the most ludicrous topic Iíve seen all year, the poll doesnít even make sense.

  13. #53
    Sidmen's Avatar Mangod of Earth
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    So would that include families of mixed race?
    they only get 1/2 the money, since they're only 1/2 black.. If its a mixed black/white guy and a white woman they get 1/4 while if its a black woman they get 3/4...

    Yeah, stupid. I would refuse to pay 20k worth of taxes if they ever did such a thing. Since my family has never owned slaves, I don't feel that I should have to pay for em (even if they arn't the same people.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

    ~Sidmen, Member of the House of Wilpuri, Patronized by pannonian

  14. #54
    Nutsack's Avatar Primicerius
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    A request for reparations would be ridiculously ignorant. My ancestors may have driven some black peoples' ancestors on the whip, but should I have to pay for something I did not participate in deciding?

    It's like asking Liberia to pay German war debts after World War II.


  15. #55

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by ~The Doctor~ View Post
    In that respect, I need to call on the British, Scandinavian, German, and Italian governments for mis-treatment of my ancestors.
    Now wait a minute young man at NO point did the British enslave, mistreat or oppress the Timelords of Gallifrey. The Royal Navy was powerful but travelling hundreds of light-years was beyond even us.

    The Germans, well, I wouldn't put it past them.
    'When people stop believing in God, they donít believe in nothing ó they believe in anything. '

    -Emile Cammaerts' book The Laughing Prophets (1937)

    Under the patronage of Nihil. So there.

  16. #56

    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Freddie View Post
    So would that include families of mixed race?

    This has to be the most ludicrous topic I’ve seen all year, the poll doesn’t even make sense.
    100% agree.

    Dahir seems to be on the crusade, first he makes a topic about Israeli Jews being the "satan's right hand", and now it's about blacks versus whites.

    Looks like I'm gonna have to make a topic in the science forum about races to enlighten some people here about racial reality.
    Last edited by HorseArcher; December 31, 2007 at 09:47 AM.

  17. #57
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    I wonder, are arabs "reparating" as well? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Islam

    Islam and slavery
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
    (Redirected from Slavery in Islam)
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    13th century slave market in Yemen

    The major juristic schools of Islam traditionally accepted the institution of slavery.[1] Muhammad and many of his companions bought, sold, freed, and captured slaves. Slaves benefited from Islamic dispensations which improved their situation relative to that in pre-Islamic society.[1][2] At the end of 19th century a shift in Muslim thought and interpretation of the Qur'an occurred, and slavery became seen as opposed to Islamic principles of justice and equality.[3] This interpretation has not been accepted by Wahhabis of Saudi Arabia.[4]

    In Islamic law , the topic of Islam and slavery is covered at great length.[1] The Qur'an, the holy book, and the hadith, the sayings of Muhammed, see slavery as an exceptional condition that can be entered into under certain limited circumstances.[4] They also consider manumission of a slave to be one of many meritorious deeds available for the expiation of sins.[5] For a variety of reasons, internal growth of the slave population was not enough to fulfill the demand in Muslim society. This resulted in massive importation, which involved enormous suffering and loss of life from the capture and transportation of slaves from non-Muslim lands.[6] In theory, slavery in Islamic law does not have a racial or color component, although this has not always been the case in practice.[7]

    The Arab slave trade was most active in West Asia, North Africa and East Africa. and by the end of the 19th century such activity had reached a low ebb. In the early 20th century (post World War I) slavery was gradually outlawed and suppressed in Muslim lands, largely due to pressure exerted by Western nations such as Britain and France.[4] However, slavery claiming the sanction of Islam is documented presently in the African republics of Chad, Mauritania, Niger, Mali and Sudan.[8][9][10]



    The Qur'an accepts the institution of slavery. It may be noted that the word 'abd' (slave) is rarely used, being more commonly replaced by some periphrasis such as ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands own"). The Qur'an recognizes the basic inequality between master and slave and the rights of the former over the latter. The historian Bruschvig states that from a spiritual perspective, "the slave has the same value as the free man, and the same eternity is in store for his soul; in this earthly life, failing emancipation, there remains the fact of his inferior status, to which he must piously resign himself."[4] [15] The Qur'an also recognizes concubinage.[16][17] A master may make his female slave as his concubine and, if she is a Muslim, he can marry her. Abstinence however is said to be a better choice.[3] The Qur'an urges, without commanding, kindness to the slave[18] and recommends, their liberation by purchase or manumission. The freeing of slaves is recommended both for the expiation of sins[19] and as an act of simple benevolence.[20] It exhorts masters to allow slaves to earn or purchase their own freedom (manumission contracts)."[16]

    Slaves are mentioned in at least twenty-nine verses of the Qur'an, most of these are Medinan and refer to the legal status of slaves. The legal material on slavery in the Qur'an is largely restricted to manumission and sexual relations.[3] According to Sikainga, the Qur'anic references to slavery as mainly contain "broad and general propositions of an ethical nature rather than specific legal formulations."[21]

    The Quran accepts the distinction between slave and free as part of the natural order and uses this distinction as an example of God's grace,[22] regarding this discrimination between human beings as in accordance with the divinely-established order of things.[3][23] "The Qur'an, however, does not consider slaves to be mere chattel; their humanity is directly addressed in references to their beliefs,[24] their desire for manumission and their feelings about being forced into prostitution.[25] In one case, the Qur'an refers to master and slave with the same word, rajul. Later interpreters presume slaves to be spiritual equals of free Muslims. For example,[26] urges believers to marry 'believing maids that your right hands own' and then states: "The one of you is as the other," which the Jalaalayn interpret as "You and they are equal in faith, so do not refrain from marrying them." The human aspect of slaves is further reinforced by reference to them as members of the private household, sometimes along with wives or children.[3] Pious exhortations from jurists to free men to address their slaves by such euphemistic terms as "my boy" and "my girl" stemmed from the belief that God, not their masters, was responsible for the slave's status.[27]

    There are many common features between the institution of slavery in the Qur'an and that of neighboring cultures. However, the Qur'anic institution had some unique new features.[3] Bernard Lewis states that the Qur'anic legislation brought two major changes to ancient slavery which were to have far-reaching effects: presumption of freedom, and the ban on the enslavement of free persons except in strictly defined circumstances.[16] According to Brockopp, the idea of using alms for the manumission of slaves appears to be unique to the Qur'an, assuming the traditional interpretation of verses [Qur'an 2:177] and [Qur'an 9:60]. Similarly, the practice of freeing slaves in atonment for certain sins appears to be introduced by the Qur'an (but compare Exod 21:26-7).[3] The forced prostitution of female slaves, a Near Eastern custom of great antiquity, is condemned in the Qur'an.[14][28]Murray Gordon notes that this ban is "of no small significance."[29] Brockopp writes: "Other cultures limit a master's right to harm a slave but few exhort masters to treat their slaves kindly, and the placement of slaves in the same category as other weak members of society who deserve protection is unknown outside the Qur'an. The unique contribution of the Qur'an, then, is to be found in its emphasis on the place of slaves in society and society's responsibility toward the slave, perhaps the most progressive legislation on slavery in its time."[3]

    Islamic jurisprudence

    [edit] Traditional Islamic jurisprudence

    [edit] Principles
    In Islamic jurisprudence, slavery was an exceptional condition, with the general rule being a presumption of freedom (al-'asl huwa 'l-hurriya — "The basic principle is liberty") for a person if his or her origins were unknown[4], though enslavement was sanctioned by God as punishment for unbelief.[30] Lawful enslavement was restricted to two instances: capture in war (on the condition that the prisoner is not a Muslim), or birth in slavery. Islamic law did not recognize the classes of slave from pre-Islamic Arabia including those sold or given into slavery by themselves and others, and those indebted into slavery.[4] Though a free Muslim could not be enslaved, conversion to Islam by a non-Muslim slave did not require that he or she then should be liberated. Slave status was not affected by conversion to Islam.[31]


    [edit] Treatment
    In the instance of illness it would be required for the slave to be looked after. Manumission is considered a meritorious act. Based on the Quranic verse ([Qur'an 24:33]), the Islamic law permits a slave to ransom himself upon consent of his master through a contract known as mukataba.[4] Azizah Y. al-Hibri, a professor of Law specializing in Islamic jurispundence, states that both the Qur’an and Hadith are repeatedly exhorting Muslims to treat the slaves well and that Muhammad showed this both in action and in words.[32] Levy concurs, adding that "cruelty to them was forbidden."[33] Al-Hibri quotes the famous last speech of Muhammad and other hadiths emphasizing that all believers, whether free or enslaved, are siblings.[32] Lewis explains, "the humanitarian tendency of the Qur'an and the early caliphs in the Islamic empire, was to some extent counteracted by other influences,"[1] notably the practice of various conquered people and countries Muslims encountered, especially in provinces previously under Roman law (even the Christianized form of slavery was still harsh in its treatment of slaves). In spite of this, Lewis also states, "Islamic practice still represented a vast improvement on that inherited from antiquity, from Rome, and from Byzantium."[1] Murray Gordon writes: "It was not surprising that Muhammed, who accepted the existing sociopolitical order, looked upon slavery as part of the natural order of things. His approach to what was already an age-old institution was reformist and not revolutionary. The Prophet had not in mind to bring about the abolition of slavery. Rather, his purpose was to improve the conditions of slaves by correcting abuses and appealing to the conscience of his followers to treat them humanely."[34] The adoption of slaves as members of the family was common, according to Levy. If a slave was born and brought and brought up in the master's household he was never sold, except in exceptional circumstances.[33]


    [edit] Legal status
    Within Islamic jurisprudence, slaves were excluded from religious office and from any office involving jurisdiction over others.[35] Freed slaves are able to occupy any office within the Islamic government, and instances of this in history include the Mamluk who ruled Egypt for almost 260 years and the eunuchs who have held military and administrative positions of note.[36] With the permission of their owners they are able to marry.[37] Annemarie Schimmel, a contemporary scholar on Islamic civilization, asserts that because the status of slaves under Islam could only be obtained through either being a prisoner of war (this was soon restricted only to infidels captured in a holy war)[1] or born from slave parents, slavery would be theoretically abolished with the expansion of Islam.[36] Fazlur Rahman agrees, stating that the Qur'anic acceptance of the institution of slavery on the legal plane was the only practical option available at the time of Muhammad since "slavery was ingrained in the structure of society, and its overnight wholesale liquidation would have created problems which it would have been absolutely impossible to solve, and only a dreamer could have issued such a visionary statement."[38] Islam's reforms stipulating the conditions of enslavement seriously limited the supply of new slaves.[1] Murray Gordon does not: "Muhammad took pains in urging the faithful to free their slaves as a way of expiating their sins. Some Muslim scholars have taken this mean that his true motive was to bring about a gradual elimination of slavery. Far more persuasive is the argument that by lending the moral authority of Islam to slavery, Muhammad assured its legitimacy. Thus, in lightening the fetter, he riveted it ever more firmly in place."[39] In the early days of Islam, a plentiful supply of new slaves were brought due to rapid conquest and expansion. But as the frontiers were gradually stabilized, this supply dwindled to a mere trickle. The prisoners of later wars between Muslims and Christians were commonly ransomed or exchanged.

    According to Lewis, this reduction resulted in Arabs who wanted slaves having to look elsewhere to avoid the restrictions in the Qur'an, meaning an increase of importing of slaves from non-Muslim lands,[40] primarily from Africa. These slaves suffered a high death toll.[40][1] Patrick Manning states that Islamic legislations against the abuse of the slaves convincingly limited the extent of enslavement in Arabian peninsula and to a lesser degree for the whole area of the whole Umayyad Caliphate where slavery had existed since the most ancient times. He however notes that with the passage of time and the extension of Islam, Islam by recognizing and codifying the slavery seems to have done more to protect and expand slavery than the reverse.[41]

    In theory free-born Muslims could not be enslaved, and the only way that a non-Muslim could be enslaved was being captured in the course of holy war.[42] (In early Islam, neither a Muslim nor a Christian or Jew could be enslaved.[43]) Slavery was also perceived as a means of converting non-Muslims to Islam: A task of the masters was religious instruction. Conversion and assimilation into the society of the master didn't automatically lead to emancipation, though there was normally some guarantee of better treatment and was deemed a prerequisite for emancipation.[44] The majority of Sunni authorities approved the manumission of all the "People of the Book". According to some jurists -especially among the Shi’a- only Muslim slaves should be liberated.[45] In practice, traditional propagators of Islam in Africa often revealed a cautious attitude towards proselytizing because of its effect in reducing the potential reservoir of slaves.[46]


    [edit] Rights and restrictions
    "Morally as well as physically the slave is regarded in law as an inferior being," Levy writes.[47] Under Islamic law, a slave possesses a composite quality of being both a person and a possession.[4] The slave is entitled to receive sustenance from the master, which includes shelter, food, clothing, and medical attention. It is a requirement for this sustenance to be of the same standard generally found in the locality and it is also recommended for the slave to have the same standard of food and clothing as the master. If the master refuses to provide the required sustenance, the slave may complain to a judge, who may then penalize the master through sale of her or his goods as necessary for the slave's keep. If the master does not have sufficient wealth to facilitate this, she or he must either sell, hire out, or manumit the slave as ordered. Slaves also have the right to a period of rest during the hottest parts of the day during the summer.[48]

    Evidence from slaves is rarely viable in a court of law. As slaves are regarded as inferior in Islamic law, death at the hands of a free man does not require that the latter be killed in retaliation.[49] The killer must pay the slave's master compensation equivalent to the slave's value, as opposed to blood-money. At the same time, slaves themselves possess a lessened responsibility for their actions, and receive half the penalty required upon a free man. For example: where a free man would be subject to a hundred lashes due to pre-marital relations, a slave would be subject to only fifty. Slaves are allowed to marry only with the owner's consent. Jurists differ over how many wives a slave may possess, with the Hanafi and Shafi'i schools allowing them two, and the Maliki school allowing four. Slaves are not permitted to possess or inherit property, or conduct independent business, and may conduct financial dealings only as a representative of the master. Offices of authority are generally not permitted for slaves, though a slave may act as a the leader (Imam) in the congregational prayers, and he may also act as a subordinate officer in the governmental department of revenue.[4][50] Masters may sell, bequeath, give away, pledge, hire out or compel them to earn money.[51]

    By the view of some madh'hab (but not others), a master may compel his/her slave(s) to marriage and determine the identity of their marriage partner(s)[52][53]

    The mahr that is given for marriage to a female slave is taken by her owner, whereas all other women possess it absolutely for themselves[54]


    [edit] Marriage and concubinage
    Slave women were required mainly as concubines and menials. A Muslim slaveholder was entitled by law to the sexual enjoyment of his slave women. While free women might own male slaves, they had no such right.[55] The purchase of female slaves for sex was lawful from the perspective of Islamic law, and this was the most common motive for the purchase of slaves throughout Islamic history.[56]The property of a slave was owned by his or her master unless a contract of freedom of the slave had been entered into, which allowed the slave to earn money to purchase his or her freedom and similarly to pay bride wealth. The marriage of slaves required the consent of the owner. Under the Hanafi and Shafi'i schools of jurisprudence male slaves could marry two wives, but the Maliki permitted them to marry four wives like the free men. According to the Islamic law, a male slave could marry a free woman but this was discouraged in practice.[42] Islam permits sexual relations between a male master and his female slave outside of marriage. This is referred to in the Qur'an as ma malakat aymanukum or "what your right hands possess".[57][58] There are some restrictions on the master; he may not co-habit with a female slave belonging to his wife,[4] neither can he have relations with a female slave if she is co-owned, or already married, but Islam allowed the master to dissolve marriages among his slaves with or without the slaves' consent.

    In ancient Arabian custom, the child of a freeman by his slave was also a slave unless he was recognized and liberated by his father.[59] In theory, the recognition by a master of his offspring by a slave woman was optional in Islamic society, and in the early period was often withheld. By the high Middle Ages it became normal and was unremarkable in a society where the sovereigns themselves were almost invariably the children of slave concubines.[60] The mother receives the title of "umm walad" (lit. mother of a child), which is an improvement in her status as she can no longer be sold. Among Sunnis, she is automatically freed upon her master's death, however for Shia, she is only freed if her child is still alive; her value is then deducted from this child's share of the inheritance.[4] Lovejoy writes that as an umm walad, they attained "an intermediate position between slave and free" pending their freedom, although they would sometimes be nominally freed as soon as they gave birth.[44]

    There is no limit on the number of concubines a master may possess. However, the general marital laws are to be observed, such as not having sexual relations with the sister of a female slave.[4][44] In Islam, "men are enjoined to marry free women in the first instance, but if they cannot afford the bridewealth for free women, they are told to marry slave women rather than engage in wrongful acts."[61] One rationale given for recognition of concubinage in Islam is that "it satisfied the sexual desire of the female slaves and thereby prevented the spread of immorality in the Muslim community."[62] Most schools restrict concubinage to a monogamous relationship between the slave woman and her master,[63] According to Sikainga, "in reality, however, female slaves in many Muslim societies were prey for members of their owners' household, their neighbors, and their guests."[64] In Shia jurisprudence - for which a good source is Al-Hilli - a master of a female slave may grant a third party the use of her for sexual relations.[4]

    Under the legal doctrine of kafa'a(lit."efficiency"), the purpose of which was to ensure that a man should be at least the social equal of the woman he marries, a freedman is not as good as the son of a freedman, and he in turn not as good as the grandson of a freedman. This principle is pursued up to three generations, after which all Muslims are deemed equally free.[65] Lewis asserts that since kafa'a "does not forbid unequal marriages", it is in no sense a "Muslim equivalent of Nuremburg laws of Nazi Germany or the apartheid laws of South Africa. His purpose, he states, is not to try to set up a moral competition - to compare castration and apartheid as offenses against humanity."[66][4]
    Last edited by Ummon; December 31, 2007 at 10:08 AM.

  18. #58
    Tajir's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Racist scum.


  19. #59
    Ummon's Avatar Indefinitely Banned
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Dahir View Post
    Racist scum.
    No reason to self-despise now. Islamic culture surely has other pluses. :wink:

  20. #60
    Tajir's Avatar Vicarius
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    Default Re: Outcome of Reparations for American Slavery

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummon View Post
    No reason to self-despise now. Islamic culture surely has other pluses. :wink:
    What? I was referring to the anti-reparation white devils.

    But as for why you even brought religion into this, quite puzzling.


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