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Thread: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

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    Default EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    I hope this is the right place...

    After reading something, I started thinking about TOSs on websites, EULAs on software and similar agreements. We all have software we use and websites we are involved in, but how much attention do you give to the agreements you are (legally bound) to? I assume there are Terms of service agreements or similar for every forum that requires an account to post, any online games, and every piece of software (even open source and similar programs, such as Firefox and Open office require you to give consent to their EULA).

    The EULA on a Windows install could add a considerable time to the install time if you were to read it all! Even though there may be all manner of evil clauses and rights assumed by any software provider, when was the last time you read a whole EULA?

    Have you read the TOS of this (or any other that requires it) website? If so, did you read it before you agreed to it, or have you read it slowly during your membership?

    Are there any regulations on what can and cannot be placed inside such agreements, or are they all entirely arbitrary? Is it OK to give each the 'benefit of the doubt' that they are fair, balanced and only pertaining to the offered services? What is the worst EULA/TOS clause you have ever seen?

    Do you even care about them?

    (I'd also like to apologise for gross apostrophe abuse in the thread title, I have no excuse. Can someone please remove them?)
    Last edited by Ummagumma; December 28, 2007 at 12:26 PM.

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    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    I have actually read several, including the one for this site in detail. Most of them I have some disagreement with, both minor and major.

    There are several big lawsuits in several countries over EULA agreements, the one that sticks out in my mind is/was in California. Basically there are several EULAs that say you agree to the EULA when you purchase the software even though the EULA is inside the product, then you cant return opened software.
    http://www.news.com/2100-1001-983988.html

    Another EULA said that you cant buy their software, then post a review of their product or benchmark tests on the internet.

    http://www.news.com/Court-Network-As...html?tag=st.nl

    Then there is the whole issue of the Sony Rootkit and other copy protection schemes such as Starforce:
    http://www.news.com/Microsoft-will-w...3-5949041.html
    http://www.afterdawn.com/news/archive/7475.cfm

    Microsofts Server 2000 had a clause in their EULA that you wouldnt use it to run a nuclear reactor

    Just within the M2TW EULA I found these:

    (a) without written permission from Sega, exploit the Game Software or any of its parts commercially, including but not limited to use at a cyber (Internet) café, computer gaming center or any other location-based site;
    I know for a fact that one gets violated all the time.

    (e) sell, rent, lease, license, distribute or otherwise transfer this Game Software or any copies without the express prior written consent of Sega;
    All of you Buy Back Games or other similar shops, show me your written permission.

    (f) reverse engineer, derive source code, modify, decompile, disassemble, or create derivative works of the Game Software, in whole or in part (except as the applicable law expressly permits, in which case all and any modifications, adaptations, improvements, etc. shall belong to, vest in and be the exclusive property of Sega and/or its licensors on creation, in any event);
    Funny how they list than, then provide modding tools.

    You agree and acknowledge that all title, ownership rights, and intellectual property rights connected with the Game Software and any and all copies thereof (including but not limited to any derivative works, titles, computer code, themes, objects, characters, character names, stories, dialogs, catch phrases, locations, concepts, artwork, animation, sounds, musical compositions, audio-visual effects, text, methods of operation, moral rights, "applets" incorporated into the Game Software, and any related documentation) are owned by Sega or its licensors.
    Wow all those names and cities and countries belong to Sega.

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Ah, Rootkit, a name that will live in infamy. I'd like to look at the EULA for Battlefield 2141 (or whenever).. I have heard that it records various stuff (when the game is not running?) so it can hit you with various targeted adverts within the game world. I wonder how many other programs use spyware-like tactics as a R&D or market research tool..
    I am only a member of 3 web communities, so I have read the terms of each - but some folks are members of many different forums and browser games.. I wonder how many have read what they agreed to? Most other places I can access all I need to as a guest, so do not have to agree to any site terms.

    I do like that, technically, Large chunks of history are proprietary systems of SEGA - I would like to see them challenge anything in court on those grounds!

    I see a few people have read this without commenting - apathy to TOCs and EULAs must be strong indeed!

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    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    I think this is the part you are referring to about Battlefield, I think every game from EA Games has this:

    " Information collected will vary depending on the activity and may include your name, e-mail address, phone number, mobile number, home address, birth date, and credit card information. In addition, we may collect demographic information such as gender, zip code, information about your computer, hardware, software, platform, media, Internet IP address and connection, information about online activity such as feature usage, game play statistics, and scores, user rankings and click paths and other data that you may provide in suryeys or online profiles. for instance. We may combine demographic information with personal information. Prize winners may also be required to provide Social Security or Social Identification Number for tax purposes. "

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
    I see a few people have read this without commenting - apathy to TOCs and EULAs must be strong indeed!
    Not apathy, at least not in my case. I'm simply left for a loss of words to express myself without resorting to various forms of vociferous expletives, grunts and mewling cries of frustration.

    What kind of intelligent conversation can I offer in such a state?

    But really, what is there for gamers to do about it? I mean, besides refusing to buy the games we're all addicted to.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Well, I'm not asking purely about games, it is also about forums and similar (such as this very site).
    But on the whole, yes. Providers of software have us all over a barrel, so to speak. Unless you were representing a very large company and seeking to acquire hundreds or thousands of seats for any particular application, I could not see any attempt to negotiate the terms being met with anything other than a 'Sorry, that's how it is'. Even the large volume buyers probably would only get that too, in some cases.

    Some is understandable, like an agreement to be civil with other users while on a forum, or not reverse engineering all the program code, but - what about a want for privacy and anonymity when playing Battlefield?

    Hypothetically:
    "Publisher,
    I would like to play your game, but would like to do it in privacy. You may store any details I supply upon registering the product - if I chose to register it. You may also have any information that is critical to online playing, such as my IP, but any other information about me, my browsing habits, my hardware and software installed is frankly non of your business. Can we negotiate a modified EULA?
    Yours
    Ummagumma"

    Answer:
    "Ummagumma,
    We at FB are pleased you have shown an interest in one of our products, and hope you will enjoy playing it.
    As you are aware, as soon as you looked at the case, so before you even purchased the game, or unwrapped it, read the EULA or even installed it you had in fact agreed to it, and we have been monitoring you for a while already. Therefore a negotiation on an established agreement is not necessary to us. If you wish to negotiate any further agreements you may wish to modify concerning our products, do not hesitate to contact us so we can refuse as politely as possible as each case occurs.

    Yours,
    FB Spokesperson"

    Or am I just too cynical?

    How many folks would notice a bad clause if it were inserted into the TWC TOS? (Aside from Moderators and other crew..)

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
    Well, I'm not asking purely about games, it is also about forums and similar (such as this very site).
    What's wrong with this site's TOS? It seemed the usual fair of site owners' protecting their own asses. Nothing about it jumped out at me as being unreasonable.

    Gah! I shall have to read it again!
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Roy Batty View Post
    What's wrong with this site's TOS? It seemed the usual fair of site owners' protecting their own asses. Nothing about it jumped out at me as being unreasonable.

    Gah! I shall have to read it again!
    I wasn't implying anything detrimental about it at all! By the 'read it again' though, at least you have read it once. It was just a 'for example'.

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    I'm pretty sure the World of Warcraft EULA gives all rights to your soul to Blizzard.

    I usually don't read them, and blindly scroll down and click accept.

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    This is why I make my own software.


    Slay the mods.

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    Roy Batty's Avatar Senator
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
    I wasn't implying anything detrimental about it at all! By the 'read it again' though, at least you have read it once. It was just a 'for example'.
    Gotcha'. At any rate, after a second perusing, I didn't find anything blatantly awful.

    Just out of curiosity, what kinds of bad ToSs have you found on other forums? I imagine some developer boards could be pretty bad.
    The trouble with fighting for human freedom is that one spends most of one's time defending scoundrels. For it is against scoundrels that oppressive laws are first aimed, and oppression must be stopped at the beginning if it is to be stopped at all.
    H. L. Mencken

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Roy:
    Nothing really bad. One site (a very small community of indie game developers) has some privacy clauses about various things, to keep story ideas, development and WIPs within the site, another (large global site about the whole 3D and related industries) has an understandable element of not posting real photographs within you portfolio - it's the worst kind of cheating for 3D work!


    I just saw someone say that they refused to read the 'stupid' TOS (or words to that effect) - and as they were posting they had made an account, therefore agreed to the TOS (as 'stupid' or unread as they may be). I then thought it was a rather stupid thing to do, but then I thought of all the software I have installed and either only briefly read the EULA, or not read it at all. Other people will be involved in many more internet communities than me and may have never read any agreements they have made with the site. I assume that there is a general 'niceness' to them, in that they basically have legal disclaimers for improper use, protection of code development etc, or just an agreement to conduct yourself in a pleasant manner on forums (so no offensive or sickening posts, no blatant advertising etc).
    As GrnEyedDvl points out though, we as Total War players have all agreed that history as we know it, and the places on the map, are now property of SEGA. How they could enforce us not using them is a different (and farcical) matter entirely, but technically, from one point of view, it is a legally binding agreement we have all made. Combined with the Battlefield spy-probe agreement, it all reminds me of the afternow podcasts!

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    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juno View Post
    This is why I make my own software.
    That works for small apps lol but I know for a fact you didnt write every single piece of code you use, such as this forum or your operating system or games.

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by GrnEyedDvl View Post
    That works for small apps lol but I know for a fact you didnt write every single piece of code you use, such as this forum or your operating system or games.
    So you're caling me a liar.


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    GrnEyedDvl's Avatar Liberalism is a Socially Transmitted Disease
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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    No, I said you exagerated lol

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Juno View Post
    This is why I make my own software.
    Quote Originally Posted by Juno View Post
    So you're caling me a liar.
    What text editor do you use then? What compiler? What OS do they run on? Each of those will have some sort of licence agreement.

    I'd like to use my own, but it would take the next 400 odd years (If I'm lucky) to make software good enough to match what is currently available - never mind next years releases, or the next, or the next.......

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    I told ya, I make it all myself.

    Even the hardware.


    Slay the mods.

    Mod Hit-List: Annaeus, IMB, scottishranger, Exariste, Garnier, Scorch, Pannonian, Trax.

    Four down, four to go.

    Your days are numbered, gentlemen.

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Ummagumma View Post
    What text editor do you use then? What compiler? What OS do they run on? Each of those will have some sort of licence agreement.

    I'd like to use my own, but it would take the next 400 odd years (If I'm lucky) to make software good enough to match what is currently available - never mind next years releases, or the next, or the next.......
    Juno is a world-class ********ter: take everything he says with a grain of salt.

    I read TWC's TOS carefully before I signed up: then again, it was the first forum I ever joined. I'm on about four or five now, but only post regularly in three. I just skimmed those TOS, as they all use vBulletin and surprisingly are rather similar to TWC's.

    I never read EULA's. I just click I accept. I almost never register my games, and the only thing I play online is DoD:Source.


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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Strangely enough, most of these EULAs have no legal ground to stand on, assuming you are not presented with the EULA before you buy the game. Since, once you purchase it the previous owner has no control over it whatsoever. A legally binding agreement must be two way - that is, you must know exactly with whom you are making the agreement with. Otherwise it is null and void.
    "For the humble doily is indeed the gateway to ULTIMATE COSMIC POWER!"

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    Default Re: EULA's and TOS's (and other agreements)

    Quote Originally Posted by Sidmen View Post
    Strangely enough, most of these EULAs have no legal ground to stand on, assuming you are not presented with the EULA before you buy the game. Since, once you purchase it the previous owner has no control over it whatsoever. A legally binding agreement must be two way - that is, you must know exactly with whom you are making the agreement with. Otherwise it is null and void.
    I think you are misinformed. You do not actually buy the product, in the same way you do not buy or own music and movies. You buy a license to use it, but do not actually own it - it stays the property of the publisher. I don't think you even own the CD/DVD in the truest sense of the word - it remains property of the publisher. They are very legally binding agreements - or there would be no piracy laws as there would be no 'legitimate' usage. Basically with PC games and software, you pay for the EULA which grants permission to use the software stated in the EULA. It is just a one-way contract, non-negotiable. It still remains property of the licensor.

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