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Thread: Lusteds New Experimental AI

  1. #81
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    I see you made rebel fleets actually attack and blockade ports, this is great.

    I wonder if it's possible to make rebel armies besiege and actually take cities... Just like it was happening in Rome if I recall correctly.

    I also wonder if AI could handle it by attacking all rebel stacks inside their territory with huge priority and arming cities near strong rebel armies.

  2. #82
    Byg's Avatar Read The Manual
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Quote Originally Posted by delra View Post
    I see you made rebel fleets actually attack and blockade ports, this is great.

    I wonder if it's possible to make rebel armies besiege and actually take cities... Just like it was happening in Rome if I recall correctly.

    I also wonder if AI could handle it by attacking all rebel stacks inside their territory with huge priority and arming cities near strong rebel armies.
    I can't think why pirates would blockade a city's port.
    Rebels taking cities would be great though.

    Lusted: Here's some feedback on your campaign ai.

    As Teuton I wanted to take vilnius (we were neutral to each other), this was made very easy because the ai moved most of its men out of the city and placed them in a fort on the border.
    I walked past the fort (it took 2 turns to reach the city in their land) and took the city before they got back (another turn sieging and attacking the next), then took out the fort army afterwards in the field.
    At least the fort army abandoned it whilst I was besieging, but it only moved a few paces towards me when it could have reached and tried to break the siege.

    Perhaps invading neutral territory without permission should mean war immediately otherwise it is too easy to trick the ai.
    Last edited by Byg; December 16, 2007 at 12:01 PM.

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  3. #83
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Can't make crossing of neutral territory mean war, nor would i want to as campaign map pathfinding often has AI go over other nations provinces to invade another province. And as for the fort issue, alas it cannot be helped as it's a side effect of using defend_fortified.
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  4. #84

    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    A couple additional observations:

    The diplomacy wrap around is kind of annoying but it's allowing me to stay in the game. After the first ceasefire is rejected you can offer another and get very favorable terms.

    Something else is that despite everyone having "boundless" wealth very few armies are being built. The ones that are consist of a good variety of strong troops. With all the extra money the AI has though, it would be nice if they actually used it to build more.

  5. #85
    Byg's Avatar Read The Manual
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Quote Originally Posted by Lusted View Post
    Can't make crossing of neutral territory mean war, nor would i want to as campaign map pathfinding often has AI go over other nations provinces to invade another province. And as for the fort issue, alas it cannot be helped as it's a side effect of using defend_fortified.
    Perhaps not with your file, but you could do it from a script with something like this so as not to affect the ai. I can think of no other way to save the ai from this vulnerability. I'll pop it in my own mod and try it out unless they have disabled this old method.

    I would also need to add a test for the province that the army was in, but for starters (in rough):

    monitor_event FactionTurnStart FactionType mongols
    and FactionIsLocal
    and "insert locality check"
    and DiplomaticStanceFromFaction templars = Neutral
    console_command diplomatic_stance templars mongols war
    end_monitor

    code length may be prohibitive though.
    Last edited by Byg; December 16, 2007 at 05:46 PM.

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  6. #86

    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Hi Lusted

    really great work with this ai

    i'm playing with french H/H and i really enjoy this campaign more than the campaign with french H/H with the first ai in SS 5.1b since the factions don't disapear too easily now i can fight with every one

    really too good

  7. #87

    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Lusted, that is a great job! Salute!

    Your new AI is working great in my KoJ campaign , I even got a few surprises defending cities : enemy attacked 2 gates at the same time with rams and siege towers! That was a totally new experience

  8. #88

    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Lusted,

    In my latest campaign the AI keeps on invading me and provides a great challenge so far. However when I take fow off and started to watch the AI on the campaign map it is hardly invading other AI factions anywhere. Here is just one example of whats going on below.



    Early on in the campaign Antioch attacked the Turks and captured a few settlements. Since then though it has done nothink but sit there wasting vast amounts of money on its army upkeep. They are at war with the Turks have a far superior military strength but they wont invade 90 turns in, I can't see the logic in this. The Turks have got themselves more land but their military balance is much lower yet antioch defends deep (Im Byzantium allied to Antioch btw). The vanilla AI would be using most of its military to attack not defend (as it should). This presents a huge flaw in the AI because unless it attacks its enemies when it has great numbers of men it will soon fall into massive amounts of crippling debt.



    As a result you have an AI which is good on survival but doesn't do much invading other than against the human player. 90 turns in and still not one faction destroyed and hardly any land has changed hands since the start of the campaign, this just doesn't seem right to me.

    Here is another screen of ultra defensive France who still haven't captured Caen 90 turns in. Notice the huge armies they have but will only use for defense (even though Scotland their allies are beating England).

    Last edited by Dave Scarface; December 22, 2007 at 02:08 PM.

  9. #89
    Morfans's Avatar Semisalis
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Playing VH/VH as the Byzantine Empire, 2TPY + halved pop growth.
    The campaign so far (1118AD) is very realistic & tough - very good
    job, Lusted ! I have full stacks of K.Rus attacking from North, Turks
    & Egyptians really trouble my life, BUT my alliance with the Venetians
    is (for the time beeing) solid as it should. Fatimids have annihilated
    the Templars and retaken Jerusalem from the HRE crusaders.
    Normans/Sicilians are strong - they caught Dyrrhachium and are
    now lurking in the dark around Arta.

    Just one strange thing, see the jpg ...

  10. #90
    aNarion.'s Avatar Centenarius
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Is alliances trustworthy on vh?

  11. #91
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    @dave scarface, this is something i'm working on. The latest version of my AI is missing it's killing blw as it were.
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  12. #92

    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    So far a combination of your Campaign AI, Battle AI along with much better army recruitment has given me a greater challenge than ever before. If only AI factions attacked each other in the same way they attack me this would be near perfect Lusted.

    All we need is for the AI to use its forces more efficently and not waste its own resources. Here are just a few ideas I am going to experiment with after christmas below:

    In your invasion decisions you have these two entries below

    <decision_entry>
    <!--
    IF TARGET HUMAN, INCREASE INVADE PRIORITY
    -->
    <min_entry is_neighbour="true" target_human="true"/>
    <max_entry is_neighbour="true" target_human="true"/>
    <faction_attitude invade_priority="50" continue="true"/>
    </decision_entry>

    <decision_entry>
    <!--
    IF TARGET HUMAN AND DIFFICULTY VERY HARD HARD, INCREASE INVADE PRIORITY
    -->
    <min_entry is_neighbour="true" difficulty="very_hard"/>
    <max_entry is_neighbour="true" difficulty="very_hard"/>
    <faction_attitude invade_priority="150" continue="true"/>
    </decision_entry>


    Thats an extra 200 in total added on to the final invasion decisions. Now you could add this to each AI label.

    <decision_entry>
    <!--
    if target is an outlive faction target, increase invade priority
    -->
    <min_entry is_target_faction_to_outlive="true"/>
    <faction_attitude invade="invade_start" invade_priority="200" alliance_against="1" continue="true"/>
    </decision_entry>


    This might give the AI that little extra encouragement to invade and not hold back so much. Also the invasion decisions themselves might be fine, it could just be that defend fortified is the cause here and stopping the AI from attacking normally. There arn't that many defensive decisions in your AI now but Im gonna have a tinker around with some of them and see if changing any holds the key.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dave Scarface; December 23, 2007 at 03:59 AM.

  13. #93
    Byg's Avatar Read The Manual
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    I'm getting very good results in my test campaign regarding ai vs ai, now up to turn 70.

    Scotland has taken many settlements from HRE, as has Poland and Milan.

    The only general thing I would alter would be to get the ai to sieze the opportunity of making war when, at least, the human player is preoccupied in another war because I am then at my most vulnerable.

    Also, not a bad thing or good necessarily, but I notice that relations are constantly improving between me and other faction even though I may be at war with their ally. On allying relations jump almost immediately to perfect. I suppose this means they wont attack me even if they would clearly win?

    None yet has initiated war with me.

    EDIT: what is the advantage of defend fortified as opposed to any alternative?
    Last edited by Byg; December 23, 2007 at 04:45 AM.

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  14. #94
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    This might give the AI that little extra encouragement to invade and not hold back so much. Also the invasion decisions themselves might be fine, it could just be that defend fortified is the cause here and stopping the AI from attacking normally. There arn't that many defensive decisions in your AI now but Im gonna have a tinker around with some of them and see if changing any holds the key.
    The problem from looking at the system.log.txt is that the AI using invade_opportunistic too much and not invade_immediate which would lead to better attacks.

    Also, not a bad thing or good necessarily, but I notice that relations are constantly improving between me and other faction even though I may be at war with their ally. On allying relations jump almost immediately to perfect. I suppose this means they wont attack me even if they would clearly win?
    Yes that is something i've been meaning to look at as i think i've messed it up slightly.
    EDIT: what is the advantage of defend fortified as opposed to any alternative?
    Better AI garrisoning of settlements whilst also letting the AI be quite aggressive. defend_frontline does not have very well defended settlements, defend_deep is too passive though very well garrisoned. I use defend_fortified when at war, defend_deep if at war and losing, and defend_frontline if at war and very superior.
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  15. #95
    Byg's Avatar Read The Manual
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Sorry for all the questions, but what stance does the ai take when not at war with a particular neighbour, ally or neutral and does this leave it vulnerable?

    Looking at my own campaign as Teut, I'm thinking of taking on neutral Poland as most of the cities they have on the border with me have 1 or 2 units in garrison, which means that with 3 mini armies I can take all 3 of these settlements at once.

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  16. #96
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Sorry for all the questions, but what stance does the ai take when not at war with a particular neighbour, ally or neutral and does this leave it vulnerable?
    At the moment defend_minimal as i think i've forgotten to send up a generic defend decision for if not at war and neighbour(which would be defend fortified).
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  17. #97
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    I had some fun with #4 and it's really very nice and does pretty much everything I would like it to do. I haven't had such a pleasurable campaign for a long while, really.

    If there's anybody hesitating whether give it a go, here's my advice: DO IT.

    BUT.

    One thing that I noticed though is AI unwillingness to assault cities when they are heavily garrisoned. Is this intended?

    For example, I was Lithuania. A crusade was called on my Riga so I garrisoned it quickly with all the swords and spears I could get. Chopping through what was inside would take a couple of hours and I knew that.

    So when the whole world joined the crusade (10 factions or so, one of the biggest crusades I ever saw, well done Lusted!) I wasn't afraid at all. (I was but I won't admit that). :-)

    Crusades arrived, first of them was Scotland (they really do well in this version! they gathered a huge stacks of troops and took whole England before they came back from France) and it was a tough one. Heavy infantry, heavy cavalry. Really, something I would take on a crusade myself. They besieged Riga and I thought it will be a few hours of defending. I prepared food and drinks... I knew they are able to take the city. BUT...

    They didn't assault!!!
    They just withdrew the next turn. Lifted the siege and stood next to Riga.

    After a couple of turns other crusades arrived. And each of them besieged my Riga, lifted siege the next turn allowing another one to besiege the city and lift the siege the next turn.

    I had fun for like twenty turns with half of european armies standing there dumbly... before I killed them all (Lithuanian roster is really hardcore, they have better crossbows than Italians!).

    So crusaders are gone (not really but pretty much). Next thing I notice is my Hamburg being besieged by HRE. They come with two stacks of elites from Magdeburg (this part of AI is working really great! they prepared and they came in full force, not with a bunch of peasants) and I know it's all lost as what I have inside won't survive such a wave even at the plaza. BUT...

    They fricking RESIGN!!! Lift the siege a turn after and go stand next to the city.

    Here's my conclusion. I don't want suicidal AI throwing their armies on crowds inside. It will make early AI expansion very difficult. And this is not anybody would wish for.

    I really love this version, it still has a small problem though.

    What I would like to change is making them at least hold at the siege for longer than a turn. I don't want forcing them to assault as I know AI would quickly lose all its armies. But them resigning and lifting the siege is just hopeless.

  18. #98
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    One thing that I noticed though is AI unwillingness to assault cities when they are heavily garrisoned. Is this intended?
    Yes the AI will try and attack when it has an advantage, if you uber garrison your settlements it is very unlikely to attack them.
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  19. #99
    delra's Avatar Praepositus
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    But why not maintain the siege? If I have no advantage, I try to starve out the guys who are inside. Lifting it after a turn and starting it again a turn later is just weird...

    Anyway, this has its bright side too, I can leave the city with my army and play a nice field battle out of it instead of getting angry navigating inside the city. Guys with slower computers also benefit from fighting battles without city animation...

    But still, it's unhistorical. :-)

  20. #100
    Lusted's Avatar Look to the stars
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    Default Re: Lusteds New Experimental AI

    Well i can't dictate how long the AI mainatains sieges for, there's no variable for that.
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