WiP: Real Recruitment for SS

[Echad]

NO! AFTER...

[Point Blank]

Recruit priority is in EDB, and RR has it's own EDB, so everything will be good, as long as you install the RR ABOVE my Fix Pack. =)

recruit_priority_offset is in the EDU. But I think with this that there are a wide variety of values that will give an improved army composition. Most of the ones in the RC EDU are a merge of the values from the different Kingdoms mods, with lowered priority for artillery. Others may prefer to use different values to give different army compositions.

[Echad]

Sorry, mistyped. =) Now will merge a new EDU.

Hey, the new dictionary entries should not be used? Will there be any sense to use them and the new desccriptions for units without the RR? =\

AND, what free_upkeep_unit means? That they havo zero upkeep, or that they can be garrisoned in castles? And should it be used outside of RR?

[Echad]

Oh, some more questions raised:

1 - Why some units are placed differently in the EDU? Any sense in changin/not changing the order? =\

2 - Disclaimer says we have 500 units now, while it was 498 in the SS - what units were added and is it safe (means loading old saves won't over in a CTD) to merge them?

Sry for dblpost...

New one popped up:

3 - The Katahractoi seem to have been nerfed a little, from 14 defence down to 10... As they seem to be costy, I think it will make them less valuable now... What if I set the armor def to 12? Or should it be better using the cost from RR? =\

~~~~

And now, as half of EDU for the 2.00 Fix Pack is complete, I have some comments... I really like that there are no more 2 hp units, and the bonus to billmen attack and defence for the heavy ones. Venetian Heavy Infantry with a unit priority of 100 is uber. =) Won't this make their army solely Heavy Infantry? =\ Anyway, I do like the unit enought for it. =) And why do you nerfed 'em so much, lowering attack, morale and defence simultaneously - shouldn't they be elite troops? =\ I really thought there would be not so much changes, but the amount here is just... I also took some liberty in recruit priority, and combined some your values with Dave Scarface's, along with some mine corrections (don't dig why Scottish Pike units should be 0 or lower), in order to get the most funny and good EDU.

[Point Blank]

Sorry, mistyped. =) Now will merge a new EDU.

Hey, the new dictionary entries should not be used? Will there be any sense to use them and the new desccriptions for units without the RR? =\

AND, what free_upkeep_unit means? That they havo zero upkeep, or that they can be garrisoned in castles? And should it be used outside of RR?

New dictionary entries are useful because they give the RC unit quality.

Free upkeep means the unit doesn't pay upkeep if it is in a place where it can be recruited, and that place has available free upkeep slots. Eg this applies to Feudal units in castles in RR. I think that castles have free upkeep slots in regular SS 5.1 so I guess it could be used.

The EDU grew and changed over time and then was imported into SS, so the order of some units may be different.

The disclaimer is old, might no longer be accurate. The units in RR are exactly the same as in regular 5.1 and are usually found at the same tier etc, I stuck pretty close to KK's work there.

The Kataphractoi, in latest RC, have 11 armor, 5 defense and 3 shield, so total 19 defense. They have been set to elite quality. They are plenty tough believe me

The VHI priority of 100 makes them the first choice to be recruited if any are available in the pool. Most of the priority values were taken from the 4 Kingdoms campaigns and merged into the EDU, with artillery priorities lowered significantly.

The VHI are not 'nerfed', they are set to be an average quality unit, armed with a warhammer. The description reads 'Well armoured, and equipped with a war hammer, these men are recruited to protect the far flung interests of the Venetian empire from many enemies, both at sea and on land. Their long hafted war hammers are designed to penetrate armour, making this heavy infantry unit a good choice for tackling armoured opponents.' There is nothing to suggest elite status. It would certainly be reasonable to set them to Superior quality though, since they are recruited from a fortress. Note that because its a warhammer with a spiked shaft, they have a charge bonus of 3 rather than 2 as would be the case for a mace or an axe. If you want to set them to Superior quality, the EDU entry should read:

type Venetian Heavy Infantry
dictionary Venetian_Heavy_Infantry ; Venetian Heavy Infantry, lp
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
banner holy crusade
soldier Venetian_Heavy_Infantry, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 4, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 3, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, blunt, mace, 25, 1
stat_pri_attr ap
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 0, 1
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 6, 4, 6, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 3
stat_ground 1, 0, 2, 0
stat_mental 9, normal, trained
stat_charge_dist 5
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 3, 520, 180, 75, 55, 520, 4, 160
armour_ug_levels 3, 4
armour_ug_models Venetian_Heavy_Infantry, Venetian_Heavy_Infantry_ug1
ownership venice
era 2 venice
recruit_priority_offset 100

[UglySori]

Hmm turn 80ish now control the middle east and about to assault the Euro factions see how their army makeup looks. I was fairly satisfied with the army make-up of Egypt. Took me around 25ish turns starting from turn 50.

Few things I noticed because of changes from RR. The Fatimids were basically running around with no heavy infantry. Now I know they aren't really an hvy inf faction but the changes were noticeable from even SS 5.1 w/o RR. I felt kind bad actually since they didn't seem to have anything that could stand before my dismounted Byzantine lancers or Pronia infantry, let alone my dismounted Latinkon or Varangian guard. Before RR, Egypt seemed to field large numbers of Al-Haqa, Tabardriyya, Dismounted Ghulams, and some Hashashim mixed in with Saracen militia. There was very little heavy cavalry also post-RR, the heaviest I saw until I neared Cairo was Mamluk archers which were kicking ass actually lol. Once I neared Cairo I faced large numbers of Khassaki and Kwazirmian heavy cav which came as a nice surprise.

Average make-up for Fatimid army was some non-powder artillery, heavy javelin/archer contigent, supporting Saracen/Dismounted Arab Cav, little hvy inf in way of Al-Haqa/possibly Merc Saracen, and supported by wings of Mamluks and Arab cav. Looking through the EDU, seems like Egypt can't recruit Ghulams /dismounted Ghulams in the late Era. Tabaryyid don't come out to "New Era" event which I am assuming is the pike event?

The other odd thing for me is that powder artillery seems to have lower priority with the AI. The Egyptians had the technology for Grand bombards in several of the cities I took over but failed to field even one bombard. Mangonel and Trebuchets were very present on the other hand.

More armor quirks for the Byzantine army, Byzantine lancers can upgrade all the way up to Kataphract? I only noticed because my dismounted lancers suddenly had a silver armor upgrade and noticed they could go all the way up to Kataphract. Playing around with it in custom battle is funny. Dismounted Byzantine lancers look like heavy lamellar Archontopoulai on foot and mounted lancers look like upgraded Archontopoulai except on a non-barded horse lol. Another thing is that certain units as far as I can tell like Greek firethrowers and Armenians of Cicilia are listed as having shied stats w/o actually having shields graphically. Does that effect anything? Lastly, I notice that most spear militia can't upgrade past leather now unless you're western European. Eastern europeans can upgrade their spear militias to light mail. This a balance thing or historical thing? Just curious. I mean I guess it would make sense cause of the heat or something.

[Westermeyer]

First of all, great mod, great idea, thumbs up.

Second of all, it feels like the Dismounted Ritterbruder have been nerfed into oblivion, even with upgraded armor and veterancy. Considering they are the "signature" unit (well, kind of) of the Teutons combined with the cost to recruit and equip them, it seems like they should have an easier time taking on Chivalric Knights. Do I just suck at this game, am I using them wrong, or are they supposed to be like this?

[Point Blank]

UglySori: quick question, with your Fatimid campaign, is it a late campaign? Will take a look at them. The Ghulams become rarer as the game progresses, yes, but the slack should be taken up somewhat by Tabardariyya, Al-haqa and halberd militia, and to a lesser extent hashishim, most of which become available about 1300. It could be a matter of tweaking the EDU recruit_priority_offset settings to make the heavier units have greater priority, which you may want to try yourself - the values I put there certainly aren't cast in stone. I think gunpowder artillery has a higher priority than other artillery, but will check.

Something else I will do, is take a look at Dave Scarface's recruit_priority_offset settings. He has done them for the SS EDU and they may indeed work out better than the ones I used, which were mostly CA-derived.

The Byzantine Lancers can indeed upgrade to plate armor equivalent. That has been in since vanilla and is in Kingdoms too. Will look at Armenians of Cilicia etc, its so easy for small issues to slip by due to the sheer volume of units. The spear militia upgrades I am not sure about, the EDU upgrades are derived from the SS EDU so I have just followed those.

Westermeyer: The Dismtd Ritters have been set to 'Elite' quality with the appropriate stats, same as Chivalrics, except they have better morale (13 vs 11) frighten_infantry, are impetuous (+1 attack, -1 defense) and highly_trained. Its always a question if some of these units should be given further special consideration. An option is to boost them up to 'Special' quality level, which is basically where bodyguards are at, and gives an extra attack and defense point, reduced attack delay, and better morale. Aside from Bodyguards, its used now for a few units such as Canons of the Holy Sepulcher, Sherwood Forresters, Battlefield Assassins etc.

They would then be:

dictionary Dismounted_Ritterbruder ; 'Special' quality Dismounted Ritterbrüder, f
category infantry
class heavy
voice_type Heavy
banner faction main_infantry
soldier Dismounted_Feudal_Knights, 48, 0, 1.2
attributes sea_faring, hide_forest, hardy, can_withdraw, frighten_foot, free_upkeep_unit
formation 1.2, 0, 2.4, 2.4, 3, square
stat_health 1, 0
stat_pri 9, 4, no, 0, 0, melee, melee_blade, piercing, sword, 0, 1
;stat_pri_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_pri_attr no
stat_sec 0, 0, no, 0, 0, no, melee_simple, blunt, none, 25, 1
;stat_sec_ex 0, 0, 0
stat_sec_attr no
stat_pri_armour 7, 6, 6, metal
;stat_armour_ex 7, 9, 0, 0, 5, 8, 8, metal
stat_sec_armour 0, 0, flesh
stat_heat 8
stat_ground 1, -2, 3, 2
stat_mental 14, impetuous, highly_trained
stat_charge_dist 5
stat_fire_delay 0
stat_food 60, 300
stat_cost 1, 935, 600, 65, 155, 935, 2, 200
armour_ug_levels 3, 4, 5, 6
armour_ug_models Dismounted_Ritterbruder, Dismounted_Ritterbruder, Dismounted_Ritterbruder_ug1, Dismounted_Ritterbruder_ug1
ownership teutonic_order
era 0 teutonic_order
era 1 teutonic_order
era 2 teutonic_order
;unit_info 14, 0, 20
recruit_priority_offset 35

EDIT: took a look at Dave Scarface's recruit_priority_offset settings, they are very systematic and consistent, I think they are preferable to the CA-derived values I have used, so will copy them over to the EDU. Should improve army composition.

[Point Blank]

RR Beta 0.95 / RC 1.41 have been released, see new thread:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showt...73#post2638073

[Echad]

Point Blank, I will combine some of your values with Dave's, and will change something myself - you should review the one I'll have in Fix Pack 2.0 - I think I can release the EDU alone today or tomorrow, depends on how much there are changes in 1.41, since it was halfway done for 1.40...

[UglySori]

Pointblank: Sorry been busy but yes I was playing in the Late ERA campaign mainly b/c the last long one I had played before I installed RR was a Byzantium Late ERA campaign so it was easier to compare the differences by just replaying the campaign just now with RC 1.4 and RR. And I actually finished destroying Egypt at around 1308. So maybe that was the problem. 1280-1308 was around the timeframe with my battles of them. As for the lancer armor thing, maybe I didn't notice. I don't recall being to upgrade them past lamellar in SS 4.0 and 5.1 but maybe just never tried. Trying out 1.41 now anyway.