DISCUSSION: The Kara Khitai Khanate

[Ahiga]

Research & Discussion
The Kara Khitai Khanate

While the team's own discussions and development of the Kara Khitai faction will happen in the developer's section, this is the topic for the fans to ask questions, discuss it amongst themselves, and put forth concept art and ideas for us to look at. There is no set date for their inclusion, nor an absolute certainty they will be.

Historically they have their origins with the Khitai Lao who ruled Manchuria and parts of Northern China and Mongolia from 907 to 1125. The Kara Khitai Khanate was established by Yelu Dashi, who led 100,000 Khitans into central Asia, and were joined by 10,000 more Khitains who had been subjects of the Kara Khanid Khanate. After beating the Western Kara Khanids in 1141, they earned control of Transoxania and held the Khwarezmians as vassals, which seems to have been shed by Khwarezm fairly quickly (In a decade or so).

Historically, they seem to have been the de facto enemy of Khwarezm (But also the Mongols) and would essentially be the last Northernmost faction which had involvement in the southern politics of our Map. Some consider them the vanguard of the Mongols.

Visual Resources

Historically the Kara Khitai drew from China as well as Central Asia and traditional Steppe styles. Any resources from all three of these (Chinese, Turkish, or Mongolian) would be appreciated.

Informational Resources

[Miraj]

Check out this google books. Its not complete, but its good.

The Empire of the Qara Khitai in Eurasian History: Between China and the Islamic World
http://books.google.com/books?id=B93...sec=frontcover

Wiki
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kara-Khitan_Khanate

[Randarkmaan]

ot only was paper used for
clothing, it was also used for military body armor. The Chinese found
out that pleated sheets of paper could stop the penetration of arrows.
The paper armor was standard issue with Chinese land and sea units.
Paper’s writing property was not discovered till about one century
after its discovery. The earliest example of writing on paper was
found an abandon military post. The paper found dates back to 110 AD
and contained two dozen readable characters.

This would be a very chinese touch to give them, paper armour. A few chinese touches such as this paper armour would be cool.

EDIT: Here's a specifically Khitan cavalryman, the text said "Khitan ordo cavalryman". They are said to be armed with mace, spears, bows and halberds. They could probably be a class of soldiers for Kara Khitai (a halberdier, a heavy lancer, an armoured foot-archer and an armoured horse-archer). They would normally wear helmets.

Woops... "Ordo"-cavalrymen, seem to have been a force, of Khitans, used by the Liao. Though I think you could use this guy's appearance. Wait, discount that, the Kara Khitai were also known as the Western Liao (just read up on wikipedia)



This is a chinese cavalryman, using armour with Tibetan and Turkic influences.



Adding to the "Western Liao"-thing, here's a Liao general


They really don't have any thing to do with the Khitans as far as I know, but they seem to have been important in Northern China, and they're Turkish. I give you Shaotuo Turks!

[Ahiga]

It's possible the Kara Khitia were much more thoroughly Chinese than we'd think.

• 
  • From the Atilla and the Nomad Hordes book: "No surviving illustrations seem to portray specifically Karakhitai warriors but others do illustrate Uighurs at a time when they were ruled by the Kara Khitai, and the two people are likely to have been very Similiar" and "Such unlikely cavalry weapons continue to be seen in Central Asian sources into the 15th century, and were probably spread as a result of Mongol Conquest" Yet the image says the Khitai nobleman is of the 11th and 12th century, so it seems such weapons would have been seen earlier than the Mongols.

• 
  • Here we see the justification for Chinese Arms and armors, along with large numbers of infantry.
  • It can be strange for the mentioning of large amounts of infantry, and I would think they meant the Khitai Lao if it weren't for the geographics ("North and East are the true mongols", which coincides with the Kara Khitai. The Khitai lao would have the true mongols be just plain north).

• 
  • Here we see something different than Osprey's.

• http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/dba114.html
  • Some very interesting information here on the KK's 'ancestors' the Khitai Lao:
    • Historically, the Khitan ordo cavalry could/would dismount to fight as bow or blade armed troops as need dictated, although this capability is not reflected in the DBA 1.1 list.
  • It goes on to mention they are being re-structed into something like DBM's list, being much more nomadic and mobile oriented.

[Son of Mao]

It would be awsome to see calvary armed with pole arms!!!

[Randarkmaan]

Here we see the justification for Chinese Arms and armors, along with large numbers of infantry.

It can be strange for the mentioning of large amounts of infantry, and I would think they meant the Khitai Lao if it weren't for the geographics ("North and East are the true mongols", which coincides with the Kara Khitai. The Khitai lao would have the true mongols be just plain north).

Hurray, you could have conscripted crossbowmen with paper armour (as mentioned it was good for stopping arrows), that's a typically chinese infantryman I think. As you've said they were "more" Chinese than we think. Though perhaps they would be more of tribal levies armed with crossbows in the Khitan case
Perhaps they could shoot from the hip, and shoot by ranks? Make them a different kind of crossbow unit... I think the animation used by handguns could be successfully modified to this. This would be close to how the chu ko nu was fired, I think, I saw a program. Also this would be a pretty efficient use of conscript-quality troops armed with crossbows.

http://www.dbaol.com/armies/army_114_figure_1.htm You've probably already checked here, but I posted it just in case.

[Ahiga]

Thanks for the information Randarkmaan, along with the artwork.

[nnnm]

nice to have a factions with chines influence

[Keravnos]

just when you thought BC couldn't get any better....

[Randarkmaan]

A low tier unit, armed with this crossbow, fighting the way I proposed would be something cool and uniquely chinese for the Kara Khitay to have. Would it be possible to have an animation where the soldier shoots 2-5 bolts and then reloads? This would be weaker than a normal crossbow with shorter range and less accuracy, and as I suggested it could fire by rank (if that doesen't work, then perhaps it should just have short range and low accuracy and not less damage). That is if you decide to include it. It was common in Manchuria though, where the Liao ruled, so it wouldn't be totally unthinkable for the Kara Khitai to have it in this "historically inspired" mod

Also the paper armour wold be awesome...
I don't know exactly how it looked though. It might have mimicked lamellar or scale armour, otherwise it would be nearly impossible to move, considering the paper would have to be pretty thick.

[teh.frickin.pope]

Does BC have any light/medium lancers that also happen to be horse archers? I think it would be really cool, especially considering this picture.

[Keravnos]

This post is about a basket, woven and painted, found in Subeshi, Taklmakan desert, smack center of the Kara Khitai Khanate... (KKK anyone? NOOO!), sorry had to smite the ghost before it rises...

Now, back to that great basket. It was found in the middle of Taklamakan desert, where we now know that a people lived, prior to the coming of the Turkish tribes, that were called Kushans, then Heptalites/white Huns.

The following basket must be from that period, called the Sarira basket, found in Subeshi, Taklamakan desert, China and now residing in a museum in Tokyo ( I have a tremendous respect on Japanese and their treatment of Asian art, from IndoGreek friezes to the Sarira basket to many other artworks)

The following casket depicts a Heptalite/White Hun celebration, and it is unique in that it gives us a glimpse on the life and celebration of the Heptalites, prior to their demise. From what I got of the scene there are two sheperds, animals, some human forms and musicians following the festive group, with onlookers and groud waving/cheering them on.

As I said before, it is way too soon for BC and Kara Khitai. Still, those guys didn't just vanish, they were intermingled with the Turk settlers of the area, and their clothes and design could be useful to the artists of Alpha Delta and Strelac Calibre.

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

[ShayanMirza]

Does BC have any light/medium lancers that also happen to be horse archers? I think it would be really cool, especially considering this picture.

I second the motion. That was pretty common in many Eastern armies, could be fun too.

[Zephrelial]

If pursued the Kara Khitai could prove to be an excellent faction choice for BC... Basically for two reasons:

1- It would contribute to the enrichenment of cultural and ethnical diversity in CAE (eg.KOJ,Rasjputs,Makuria) therefore the mod would seem more completed and colourful.
2- The models created can prove to be very interesting given the teams artists modelling skills,and just like makurian and rasjput units,the players can be able to enjoy brand new eastern unique units..

What I exactly mean is Abbasids,Kwarizmians,Ayyubids these represent the Islamic Eastern factions.

Rasjputs and Makurians represent the Eastern ethnicity and cultrure in a different way(although Makuria is located in Africa) and Kara Khitai can be in the same category as they are.

And as a sidenote,I agree with Ahiga Kara Khitai being more Chinese than Turkic,they were very very close to various Chinese dynasties throughout history.

Some will remember that I proposed China for BC,Kara Khitai is the closest to that faction.

[Beauchamp]

Beasts from the east, i'm all for them
Maybe they can use some of the tibetan troops/armor and add an almost Sinic-influenced troop roster? Perhaps "Tang" troops?

Anyways, looking forward to seeing some of the research

[Shadowcry]

Well In case you guys needed help in trying to create a roster.

Khitan/Mongol Units

These are units that could be used for either Mongol or Khitan Empires with only a slight change to the description. Only Two for now cause im tired.


[U.
Levy Turkic Horse Archer[/U]

The predominant horse archer of the Central Asian steppe the Turkic Horse archer was the staple of most nomad armies. Wearing cloth armour these soldiers could harass enemies easily then retreat quickly back to the steppe. Primarily armed with a composite bow they perfected the use of this through their nomadic lifestyle, constant warfare and hunting. Armed with a mace these soldiers can last in melee combat though should best be used to harass enemy lines and disorganize the enemy before the final charge.


Mongol Heavy Lancers

The Mongol Heavy Cavalry was perhaps the pinnacle of the heavy cavalry in the East. With unyielding loyalty and discipline as well as the most expensive arms and equipment in respect to his peers, these were the shock troops of the Mongol armies. Armoured with iron lamellar as well as lances and mace most foes crumbled when faced with an upcoming charge. These lancers for the moment are followers of Guchlug and remnants of the Naiman army as they passed into the Kara Khitan Khanate. Tough though few in numbers these troops easily complement the horse archers in your army.

I suppose you could use several of the Mongol Units of Vanilla textures as a base to go of from. For example the Mongol Heavy Archers could be used to be both a Khitan noble Horse Archer or a Mongol Horse Archer due to their similarity in equipment and fighting styles.

[Boztorgai_Khan]

http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showp...&postcount=270


Here Have I What of Kara-Khitai's:


Kara-Khitai MASK:



Kara-Khitai - PICTURES:


Kara-Khitai - Nobleman



Kara-Khitai - RULERS:


Tartar DynastiesNorthern Liao, , (Khitan) Dynasty, 1122-1123Hsuan Tsung
Yeh-lü Ch'un1122-1123Hsiao-te1122Liang Wang
Yeh-lü Wali1123Western Liao, , Dynasty (Qara-Khitaï, "Black Cathay"), 1125-(1141)-1218Te Tsung
John Yeh-lü [Yeliuy] Dashi1124-1144defeat of Seljuks, Khwäraz, and Qarakhänids, occupation
of Transoxania, 1141Kan-T'ien-Hou
Tabuyan, T'a-Pu-Yen 1144-1151Jen Tsung
Elias Yeh-lü I-lieh1151-1163Ch'eng-T'ien-Hou
Yeh-lü Pusuwan1163-1178Mo Ti
George Yeh-lü Chi-lu-ku1177-1211,
1213David Küchülüg1211-1218,
d.1229conquered by Mongols,
1217-1218Kin/Chin, , Dynasty (Jurchen/Nü-chên), 1115-1234T'ai Tsu
Wan-yen A-ku-ta1115-1123T'ai Tsung
Wan-yen Sheng1123-1135Hsi Tsung
Wan-yen Tan1135-1150Hai-ling Wang
Wan-yen Liang1150-1161Shih Tsung
Wan-yen Yung1161-1189Chang Tsung
Wan-yen Ching1189-1208Wei-shao Wang
Wan-yen Yung-chi1208-1213Hsüan Tsung
Wan-yen Hsün1213-1224Ai Tsung
Wan-yen Shou-hsü1224-1234Mo Ti
Wan-yen Ch'eng-lin1234conquered by Mongols,
1230-1234


Kara-Khitay - ( Kara-Khitai, Kara-Khitan ) - Khanate


The Kara-Khitan Khanate, or Western Liao (Mongolian Хар Хятад; Kara Kitad; traditional Chinese: |; simplified Chinese: ; pinyin: Xī Liáo, 1124-1218) was a Khitan empire in Central Asia. The dynasty was founded by Yelü Dashi, who led the remnants of the Liao Dynasty to Central Asia after fleeing from the Jurchen conquest of their homeland in Manchuria. The empire was usurped by the Naimans under Kuchlug in 1211; traditional Chinese, Persian and Arab sources consider the usurption to be the end of the empire. The empire was destroyed by the Mongol Empire in 1218.


Names

Kara Khitan (Hala Qidan) was the name used by the Khitans to refer to themselves. The phrase is often translated as the Black Khitans, but its original meaning is unclear today. Since no direct records from the empire survive today, the only surviving historical records about the empire come from outside sources. Since the empire took on trappings of a Chinese state, Chinese historians generally refer to the empire as the Western Liao Dynasty, emphasizing its continuation from the Liao Dynasty in Manchuria. The Jurchens referred to the empire as Dashi or Dashi Linya (after its founder), to reduce any claims the empire may have had to the old territories of the Liao Dynasty. Muslim historians initially referred to the state simply as Khitay or Khitai. It was only after the Mongol conquest that the state began to be referred to in the Muslim world as the Kara-Khitai or Qara-Khitai.


Administration

The Khitans ruled from their capital at Balasagun (in today's Kyrgyzstan). They directly controlled the central region of the empire. The rest of their empire consisted of highly-autonomous vassalized states, primarily Khwarezm, the Karluks, the Gaochang Uyghurs, the Qangli and the Western, Eastern and Fergana Kara-Khanids. The late-arriving Naimans also became vassals, before usurping the empire under Kuchlug.

The Khitan rulers adopted many administrative elements from the Liao Dynasty, including the use of Confucian administration and imperial trappings. The empire also adopted the title of Gurkhan (universal Khan). The Khitans used the Chinese calendar, maintained Chinese imperial and administrative titles, gave its emperors reign names, used Chinese-styled coins, and sent imperial seals to its vassals. Although most of its administrative titles were derived from Chinese, the empire also adopted local administrative titles, such as tayangyu (Turkic) and vizier.

The Khitans maintained their old customs, even in Central Asia. They remained nomads, adhered to their traditional dress and maintained the religious practices followed by the Liao Dynasty Khitans. The ruling elite tried to maintain the traditional marriages between the Yelü royal clan and the Xiao consort clan, and were highly reluctant to allow their princesses to marry outsiders. The Kara-Khitai Khitans followed a mix of Buddhism and traditional Khitan religion, which included fire worship and tribal customs, such as the tradition of sacrificing a gray ox with a white horse. In an innovation unique to the Kara-Khitai, the Khitans paid their soldiers a salary.

The empire ruled over a diverse population that was quite different from its rulers. The majority of the population was sedentary, although the population suddenly became more nomadic during the end of the empire, due to the influx of Naimans. The majority of their subjects were Muslims, although a significant minority practiced Buddhism and Nestorianism. Although Chinese and Khitan were the primary languages of administration, the empire also administered in Persian and Uyghur.


History

The Kara-Khitai empire was established by Yelü Dashi, who led 100,000 Khitans into Central Asia from Manchuria by way of Mongolia. Yelü conquered Balasagun from the Kara-Khanid Khanate in 1134, which marks the start of the empire in Central Asia. The Khitan forces were soon joined by 10,000 Khitans, who had been subjects of the Kara-Khanid Khanate. The Khitans then conquered Kashgar, Khotan, and Besh Baliq. The Khitans defeated the Western Kara-Khanid Khanate at Khujand in 1137, eventually leading to their control over the Fergana Valley. They won the Battle of Qatwan against the Western Kara-Khanids in September 9, 1141, which allowed the Khitans to control Transoxania and forced Khwarezm to become their vassals.

Yelü soon died in 1143, and was followed by his wife, Xiao Tabuyan, as regent for their son. Their son, Yelü Yiliu, died in 1163 and was succeeded by his sister, Yelü Pusuwan. She sent her husband, Xiao Duolubu, on many military campaigns. She then fell in love with his younger brother, Xiao Fuguzhi. They were executed in 1177 by her father-in-law, Xiao Wolila, who then placed Yelü Zhilugu on the throne in 1178. The empire was weakened by rebellions and internal wars among its vassals, especially during the latter parts of its history. In 1208, the Naimans fled from their homeland and were welcomed into the empire of the Kara-Khitai. In 1211, the Naiman prince, Kuchlug, captured Yelü Zhilugu while the latter was hunting, ending Khitan rule in the Kara-Khitai empire. The Mongols captured and killed Kuchlug in 1218. The Mongols fully conquered the former territories of the Kara-Khitai in 1220.

Sovereigns of Kara-Khitan Khanate

Sovereigns of Kara-Khitan Khanate 1124 or 1125-1221

Temple Names (

Miao Hao R miàohào)

Posthumous Names (

Shi Hao shìhào)

Birth Names

Convention

Period of Reign

Era Names (

Nian Hao niánhào) and their according range of years

Convention: check each sovereign
Dezong ( Dézōng)
Tianyouwuliedi (v Tiānyòuwǔlièdì)
Yelü Dashi ( Yēlǜ Dàshí or _ Yēlǜ Dáshí) 1
use born name
1124-1144
Yanqing (c Yánqìng) 1124 or 1125-1134
Kangguo ( Kāngguó) 1134-1144
Did not exist
Gantianhou ( Gǎntiānhòu)
Tabuyan ( Tǎbùyān)
"Xi Liao" + posthumous name
1144-1150
Xianqing ( Xiánqīng) 1144-1150

Emperor Renzong of Western Liao ( Rénzōng)
Too tedious thus not used when referring to this sovereign
Yelü Yilie ( Yēlǜ Yíliè)
"Xi Liao" + temple name
1150-1164
Shaoxing (Bd Shàoxīng) 1150-1164

Did not exist
Chengtianhou ( Chéngtiānhòu)
Yelü Pusuwan ( Yēlǜ Pǔsùwán)
"Xi Liao" + posthumous name
1164-1178
Chongfu ( Chóngfú) 1164-1178

Did not exist
Mozhu ( Mòzhǔ) or Modi ( Mòdì)
Yelü Zhilugu ( Yēlǜ Zhílǔgǔ)
use born name
1178-1211
Tianxi ( Tiānxī) 1178-1211

Did not exist
Did not exist
Kuchlug (Ch. Qūchūlǜ)
use born name
1211-1218
Did not exist
1 "Dashi" might be the Chinese title "Taishi", meaning "vizier"; Or it could mean "Stone" in Turkish, as the Chinese transliteration suggests


See also
Buraq Hajib
Kara-Khanid Khanate




MOD Start in 1174 - Kara-Khitai's were Nestorian Christian.

Kara-Khitai - RULERS Nestorian Christian


Ch'eng-T'ien-Hou Yeh-lü Pusuwan - 1163-1178

Mo Ti George Yeh-lü Chi-lu-ku - 1177-1211,1213

David Küchülüg - 1211-1218, d.1229


1217-1218 - conquered by Mongols,



David Küchülüg - 1211-1218, D.1229 - ( Last Leader of Kara-Khitai's )

Naiman Origins and Westward Flight

Kuchlug was the son of Taibuqa, the Tayang Khan (leader) of the Naiman tribe. In 1204, Jamuqa, the chief Mongol rival of Temüjin (later Genghis Khan), fled to the Naimans. Temüjin followed him, and launched an assault upon the tribe. Taibuqa at first hesitated, considering it better to fall back to the Altai Mountains and attack the Mongols from there. Kuchlug, however, favored a direct assault on the Mongols on open ground. He went so far as to dismiss his father's plan as cowardly. Taibuqa relented, and allowed Kuchlug to carry out his attack.

The battle was a disaster for the Naiman. Jamuqa abandoned them and fled. Taibuqa was mortally injured, and his main commander was killed. The rest of the tribe surrendered to Temüjin and were absorbed into his ranks. Kuchlug, however, managed to escape westward towards the Kara Irtish with some remaining Naiman soldiers.

Afterwards, Genghis Khan kept up a guard against the threat Kuchlug still posed. In 1208 they again met in battle, and Kuchlug was pushed further west into Semirechye. Reeling from another defeat, Kuchlug turned to the Kara Khitai for protection.



Kara-Khitan Empire

Rebellion against the Gur-Khan

Once he was accepted into the Kara-Khitan Empire, Kuchlug quickly gained a strong foothold. He found service as an advisor for the Gur-khan (meaning Universal Khan), the ruler of the Kara-Khitais, and even married one of the Gur-khan's daughters. He also reorganized the remaining Naiman into a military unit under his command.

During this time the Kara-Khitans were engaged with a struggle against Muhammad II of the Khwarezmian Empire. Having conquered the remnants of the Kara-Khanids in modern-day Uzbekistan, Muhammad then turned his sights on the Kara-Khitans. During the ensuing struggle Kuchlug saw his chance, and in 1210 he rebelled against his father-in-law. Muhammad gave support to this other leader battling against the Gur-khan.

The Gur-khan pulled back to his capital of Balasagun. In 1211 he was finally captured by Kuchlug. The Gur-khan was allowed to remain ruler of the Kara-Khitais, at least in name, but Kuchlug retained the real power. When the Gur-khan died in 1213, Kuchlug took direct control of the khanate.


Struggle against Muhammad II

Once Kuchlug had firmly established himself as ruler, Muhammad demanded Kara-Khiatai territory in exchange for his previous support. Kuchlug refused, and the two sides eventually went to war. The fighting was fierce on both sides, with many atrocities committed against the local population. Ultimately the war was indecisive, and the Syr-Darya eventually came to be the de-facto border between the two rulers.


Religious influences

Kuchlug was from the Naiman tribe, which was devoutly Nestorian. It can be assumed that he, along with his soldiers, brought their beliefs with them to the lands of the Kara-Khitai. Additionally, his wife was a practicing Buddhist. Once Kuchlug assumed power throughout the khanate, he would often demand that a town’s population make a choice between converting to Nestorianism or Buddhism, or face punishment.

During this time tales began to reach the west of the war between the Christian Kuchlug and Muslim Muhammad. It was told that Prester John was again battling the Muslims in the East, now with Kuchlug filling the role of the mythical Christian king.

Along with his personal beliefs, Kuchlug’s bitter war with Muhammad gave him a strong motivation to hate Islam. He began to severely persecute the religion through his kingdom, especially in the cities of Eastern Turkestan. In once instance, the imam of Hotan was nailed to the door of his madrassa. Major cities in the region, such as Yarkand and Kashgar, were desperate for any kind of salvation from their bloody ruler.


Downfall and Death

In 1218 the governor of Otrar (a city controlled by Muhammad II) humiliated and murdered two missions sent by Genghis Khan. Furious at these insults, the Mongols prepared to launch an attack against Muhammad. However, in between the Mongols and Muhammad lay the Kara-Khitai, controlled by Genghis Khan’s old enemy, Kuchlug. Before any invasion of the Khwarezmian Empire, Kuchlug had to first be defeated.

In 1218 the Mongols began their assault on the khanate. After a brief resistance in Semirechye, the capital city of Balasagun surrendered without a fight and Kuchlug fled southwards to Kashgar. The Muslim residents, however, angered at the persecution they had received, refused to help Kuchlug. He continued south across the Pamirs, eventually reaching the border of Badakhshan. There, a group of hunters caught him and handed him over to the Mongols. He was beheaded, and his head was exhibited throughout the towns that used to suffer at his hands.

[Keravnos]

Great research! +rep

[Manuel Komnenos]

if they are chinese(or very near) it will be good.

[Fenix_120]

What religion in both the game and the real world are they?

Same as Mongols?