A question

[King Peter I]

Is modding illegal?

[drak10687]

No.
I believe it used to be at one point, when games where first being made... but now I think it is highly supported, even if not officially by most developers. Some even profit from it, like Valve by making counter strike a commercial product (it started off as a mod).

It is of course illegal to sell most mods, though its not always the case. For example, CA claims the legal rights to any modification of its games. So technically, all the mods for TW belong to CA. On the other hand, the developers of Mount & Blade allow the modifications for their game to be sold at a separate price. I am not sure what the regulations for this are... but you probably have to pay some kind of fee...

Anyways, if it was illegal, no mods would be hosted at this site, as its against the ToS to support, or explicitly discuss illegal activities... you should of course know this though, having to have carefully read and agreed to the ToS before becoming a member of this site....

[Professor420]

For example, CA claims the legal rights to any modification of its games. So technically, all the mods for TW belong to CA.

I am quite sure that is not the case. It is, however, illegal to sell mods, and illegal to 'hack' the game's source/engine/game code.

[ConstantineVII]

Dear fellows,
Here are my two legal cents on a very difficult issue, the issue of brands and rights.
First of all I must underline the fact that the legal handling of such issues differs heavily on what is the applicable law. Also, please bear in ind that the specific legal area is one of the most dynamic ones, meaning that conclusions of today may vary from the legal approach we had 5 or 10 years ago. The same, of course stands for the future.
-So, the first issue that is going to bother the jurist who hadles the case of "TW modding" is "who is the protector of the TW royalties and what law did he choose to protect his rights". The answer in our particular case is, I guess, obvious. I all cases of that kind I have handled so far, the creator sells the game to the distributor along with every copyright, royalty and secondary right. So, we should keep in mind that CA is the creator of the product but SEGA is the protector of every right. The CA-SEGA secondary arrangements (such as patches, creating and maintaining an active forum, keep secrecy over a series of issues of the next releases, release docudemons, unpackers, secondary tools etc, inerfering with independent communities such as ours, creating a "hype") are things the lawyers of CA and SEGA have already dealt with and are parts of the main contract.
So, actually SEGA is the main actor in matters of rights.
Now, SEGA has the right to choose the law applicable from a palette of legal systems. Totally freely? No. SEGA should have a link with the chosen legal order. Nevertheless, gigantic companies as SEGA do maintain offices worldwidely and declare them as "homes" of the company. Thus, for SEGA the palette is quite wide.
As many of you may think, the US law on royalties is by far the most "distributor-friendly". That's why SEGA, a japanese company, should and has preferred this legal system.
TW games should be conceived as books according to the US law. So, when I buy a book, I can burn it, tear it appart, write small notes on the header and footer, change the cover, give it to someone (but giving it means I no longer can have it myself). This is Moding!
Now, in legal terms, moding is legitimate act on MY copy of the book and I can also instruct others how to mod their copies of the book. I can also give them my paintings so that they can stick them to THEIR copies of the book, as long as no part of the book (aka the game) is delivered along.
Ideally, I could also SELL (yes that's right) my mods perfectly legally, as long as they have NOTHING to do with the game itself.
Nevertheless, our skins and buildings and text docs and -in a nutshell- completed mods are BASED on the game mechanics and engine. Thus, selling them is ILLEGAL, because (to put it simply and bluntly) we CANNOT SELL THE WORK OF ANOTHER, which, no matter how modified it is, essentially remains the MODIFIED WORK OF ANOTHER.
In clear legal terms, SEGA could withhold the right to forbid any modification of the game's files. This is their right. Nevertheless they did not use this piece of weapon of their arsenal. On the other hand, they reserved every right on the .exe files, meaning that there is a de facto gentlemen's agreement between CA-SEGA and the communities to let moders do their job without harassing the distribution of the product. In a simple sentence: Do not disguise the product under the word "mod". Simplier: You should own the product in order to play the mod.

Lesson End
Questions?

[Averroës]

Well said, ConstantineVII!

It has always bothered me that some modders feel they have some legitimate claim to intellectual property or copyright when modding an already copyrighted product - like SEGA's copyrights on the Total War series.

It is certainly sensible and ethical to give credit and ask for credit when using mods; but there are no legal rights to modded work which is based upon much less plain uses already copyrighted material. I'm very much in favor of giving such credit when it is due. But even after extensive modding, the only intellectual rights and copyrights belong solely to SEGA.

Claiming any sort of copyright on an already copyrighted product, no matter how much you modified it is just as absurd as someone taking The Lord of the Rings by Tolkien and changing all the names to variants of "Bob" and the place names to minor villages in Outer Spobovia. Claiming intellectual property rights on the result would be absurd and doing so on mods is just as absurd. Clear satire, of course, is something slightly different and had to be adjudicated, at least in U.S. courts.

Sadly, many simply don't see it that way.

[ConstantineVII]

Sadly, Dear Averroes, many's opinion doesn't count in courts. Also, we should draw a clear thick red line between ethos and legal order. For me, being an advocate myself, ethics should be respected (that's why we ask for the permission of a modder to use his skins for example) but copyright legislation is just another party on another floor.

PS The mayor of Inner Spobovia is seriously pi**ed off at you. JRR Tolkien's citynames are villages of Inner Spobovia no matter what this stupid mayor of Outer Spobovia claims!!

[Oswald von Wolkenstein]

It's not illegal any more than putting a bumper sticker on your car is illegal. If you put a bumper sticker on your car and then open a dealership selling it as a different model, well then, that's illegal.

Moreover, the current legal situation is more like, any bumper sticker you put on your car, is the intellectual property of the car-maker

and that's the downside for modders. -- legally their mods belong to the CA.

[Averroës]

Sadly, Dear Averroes, many's opinion doesn't count in courts. Also, we should draw a clear thick red line between ethos and legal order. For me, being an advocate myself, ethics should be respected (that's why we ask for the permission of a modder to use his skins for example) but copyright legislation is just another party on another floor.

PS The mayor of Inner Spobovia is seriously pi**ed off at you. JRR Tolkien's citynames are villages of Inner Spobovia no matter what this stupid mayor of Outer Spobovia claims!!

Hah! Yes, but the mayor of Inner Spobovia is named Bob, so he is receiving some benefits!