Confederate flag = Nazi flag or Why fly the Confederate flag

[morteduzionism]

With the recent flak over the VP(Darth Cheney) being associated with the Confederate flag at an upstate NY gun club, I got to thinking...

First let me explain the title of the post. Isn't flying a Confederate flag tantamount to a Jewish person in Israel flying a Nazi flag? Here's why, both flags represent ideologies/institutions 180* opposed to the nations which they would be flown in. My logic is based on the assumption that there's at least one resident of Israel whose parents/grandparents collaborated with the Nazis.(that's a safe assumption, right?) Whether or not that person would ever fly a Nazi flag is beside the point, the point is that if they did it would be the same as present day Americans flying Confederate flags.

Furthermore, out of the entire history of the United States of America isn't the only enemy that has ever threatened that union been the Confederate States of America? Yes, politicians imply every conflict is a "threat to the American way of life" but isn't the reality that the only genuine threat came from the Confederacy? Throughout the Cold War was the 'American way of life' every truly threatened by U.S.S.R.? Spanish American War? Korean? Vietnam? Iraq I? Iraq II?

So what message are these people sending out and why? Is the logical progression of thought to question the true loyalties/motivations of those people who argue for 'smaller government'? The reason being is they're clearly opposed to a United States of America. Isn't a 'centralized' government essential for a 'union' of states?

I just don't understand why it's so acceptable to aggrandize such an anti-American symbol. There's not a single thing that even comes close to saying "anti-America" or "I hate the United States of America" as the Confederate flag. Burning the flag of the United States of America doesn't even come close.

The Confederacy sought the dissolution and destruction of the United States of America, not even Osama(to my knowledge) want's the destruction of the United States of America(I thought he wanted American influence curtailed in Saudia Arabia, stop supporting Israel and sanctions lifted from various Muslim countries[Iraq I think]) I've never heard that he wants to destroy the United States of America but that is exactly what the Confederacy wanted.

So, why fly the Confederate flag?

[King Edward III]

Why not?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Its hardly anti-american, its just two different ideologies of what people wanted the American States to be. Its like the European Union (^^) some people want it to be a super state (federal), some people just want it to be a confederation.

[Lord Condormanius]

The Confederacy did not seek the destruction of the United States. The
Confederacy sought to remove itself from the United States. There is a big difference there. To compare the Confederacy to Nazis is completely and utterly ridiculous. There are absolutely no similarities between the two.

As for the anti-American portion of the OP...it would be anti-American to disallow people to fly the Confederate flag. The Confederacy was not anti-American, it was separatist. Again, there is a huge difference.

[morteduzionism]

Why not?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Because it's completely and totally anti-American. That goes waaaay beyond being an 'anti-hero' or wearing Che Guevara T-Shirt...

That's the symbol of an institution that sought the destruction of our current country and way of life! Everyone whines about "freedom" that's a symbol of a repressive government that was wholeheartedly opposed to "freedom"...

In my mind they should be placed in the same category as Nazis. There is/was simply nothing positive or beneficial that flag represents. Just like the Nazi flag.

quote=Lord Condormanius;2341152]The Confederacy did not seek the destruction of the United States. The
Confederacy sought to remove itself from the United States. There is a big difference there.[/QUOTE]
They sought to dissolve the "union" that is "destroying" the "united" states of america.

So I don't see a difference.

To compare the Confederacy to Nazis is completely and utterly ridiculous. There are absolutely no similarities between the two.

I didn't compare them to Nazis. I clearly explained the reason for the title in the 2nd paragraph of the OP.

As for the anti-American portion of the OP...it would be anti-American to disallow people to fly the Confederate flag.

Where did you infer that I was suggesting this? My question is "why" fly the flag in the first place. A flag that was AGAINST the govt/way of life of the United States of America(in other words our current govt/way of life)

The Confederacy was not anti-American, it was separatist. Again, there is a huge difference.

The Confederacy was anti-United States of America. Since the use of the word "American" typically refers to citizens of the "United" States of America I think it's safe to suggest that the "Confederate" States of America were "anti-American"

So, no. No difference at all.

[Lord Condormanius]

They sought to dissolve the "union" that is "destroying" the "united" states of america.

So I don't see a difference.

The difference is that you are incorrect. They did not seek to dissolve the union, the sought to leave the union. There is a very big difference.

I didn't compare them to Nazis. I clearly explained the reason for the title in the 2nd paragraph of the OP.

Actually, you did compare them to Nazis when you wrote, "In my mind they should be placed in the same category as Nazis."

My question is "why" fly the flag in the first place. A flag that was AGAINST the govt/way of life of the United States of America(in other words our current govt/way of life)

You are again mistaken. The Confederacy was not against the way of life of the United States. The Confederacy wanted to secede from the union because they thought that their rights were being trampled on. Again, they did not seek to destroy the United States, they sought to leave it.

Why fly the flag? To some it is a symbol of the attempt to stand up for and secure states rights. Personally, I don't think it is anyone's business why they want to fly it. This is American and people have a right to fly the Rebel flag if they wish.

The Confederacy was anti-United States of America. Since the use of the word "American" typically refers to citizens of the "United" States of America I think it's safe to suggest that the "Confederate" States of America were "anti-American"

The Confederacy was at war with the United States, not necessarily anti-United States. I think it would be safe to say that Confederacy saw the Union as anti-American.

So, no. No difference at all.

Huge difference.

[Ó Cathasaigh]

Dear, Sweet baby Jesus.

You are so off on your history it's not even funny.

First let me explain the title of the post. Isn't flying a Confederate flag tantamount to a Jewish person in Israel flying a Nazi flag?

Not at all. Holocaust vs Rebellion...I see no connection.

Isn't a 'centralized' government essential for a 'union' of states?

No.

I just don't understand why it's so acceptable to aggrandize such an anti-American symbol.

Anti-American?

...We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...IT IS THEIR RIGHT, IT IS THEIR DUTY, TO THROW OFF SUCH GOVERNMENT , and to provide new Guards for their future security. ... --The Declaration of Independence

Are you calling the Declaration of Independence Anti-American?

The Confederacy sought the dissolution and destruction of the United States of America

Afraid not old sport. The Confederacy sought only it's removal from the United States. The South did not invade the North, and the United States would have remained, only about half of it would be gone.

So, why fly the Confederate flag?

Heritage, not hate.

What's this? Lord Condormanius and I agree on something? Eeegadz, hell has frozen.

[Rush Limbaugh]

Ridiculous.

[morteduzionism]

The difference is that you are incorrect. They did not seek to dissolve the union, the sought to leave the union. There is a very big difference.

Opinions...you say potato I say potatoe...I simply see "dissolving"(which is what "leaving" the union would do...since it wouldn't be the same union) as synonymous with destroying...

Let's agree to disagree.

Actually, you did compare them to Nazis when you wrote, "In my mind they should be placed in the same category as Nazis."

hmmm...once again we could split hairs and play verbal gymnastics...I don't want to...

when I say "same category" that category would be called: Governments/Institutions that Repress People

You/others will infer what you will from my choices of words...even when I tell you you're interpreting them wrong...there's nothing I can do about that

You are again mistaken. The Confederacy was not against the way of life of the United States.

the "United" States of America was not pro-slavery. the "United" States of America was for a strong central government. Those are characteristics of the "way of life" of the "United" States of America. So exactly how are you suggesting the Confederacy wasn't against that?(among other things)

The Confederacy wanted to secede from the union because they thought that their rights were being trampled on. Again, they did not seek to destroy the United States, they sought to leave it.

As I said earlier "leaving the union" is synonymous with "destroying the union"...we just have to agree to disagree

Why fly the flag? To some it is a symbol of the attempt to stand up for and secure states rights. Personally, I don't think it is anyone's business why they want to fly it. This is American and people have a right to fly the Rebel flag if they wish.

I wonder if flying an Al-Qaeda flag...:hmmm:

The Confederacy was at war with the United States, not necessarily anti-United States. I think it would be safe to say that Confederacy saw the Union as anti-American.

whatchutalkinboutwillis!? They[Confederacy] stopped supporting the "union". I don't know anyway else to look at it. They[Confederacy] was anti "United" States...

the key word is: united

Huge difference.

To you maybe. But...where you stand depends on where you sit

Not at all. Holocaust vs Rebellion...I see no connection.

Who made a connection? Where did I even suggest there was a connection?
I was talking about flags and what they symbolized. The Nazi flag and Jews were the first thing that came to mind to show how a symbol could represent something completely opposed to a nation/people.

No.

Well, could you give a real world example of where a central government was not needed and a union of states existed effectively?

That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it...IT IS THEIR RIGHT, IT IS THEIR DUTY, TO THROW OFF SUCH GOVERNMENT

What ends? Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness? If that's what you meant you're right it was necessary for the people to "throw off such government". I can't think of too many governments, other than the Confederacy, which threatened the inalienable rights of Americans.

How did the Union threaten the livelihood of southerners? Other than using the political situation to ensure there would be no more slave states?

How did the Union threaten the liberty of southerners? Other than restricting their liberty to repress and enslave other humans?

How did the Union threaten the pursuit of happiness by southerners? Other than their pursuit of the pleasure they received from owning other humans?

*I know there were other reasons for the Civil War besides slavery!

Are you calling the Declaration of Independence Anti-American?

No. I'm calling the Confederacy and its' supporters/admirers anti-American...anti United States of America to be specific...didn't I say exactly that?

Afraid not old sport. The Confederacy sought only it's removal from the United States. The South did not invade the North, and the United States would have remained, only about half of it would be gone.

OK...the problem is I see the words dissolution and destruction as synonymous. You don't.

Heritage, not hate.

But it's a heritage totally opposite to the current way of life of the "United" States of America

Ridiculous.

For some reason I thought you'd agree with me Rush...go figure

My argument/conversation is strictly suggesting that the Confederacy was opposed to the United States of America...I continually emphasize the word "union" to show it's the current form of govt. that they were opposed to. Nothing else.

The flag simply doesn't represent anything relevant to todays United States of America. In fact it was opposed to todays United States of America. That's why I can't understand why 'patriotic' Americans(unless they really don't support the United States and support the hopes of returning to the Confederacy) would fly that flag.

[Dayman]

To ban the confederate flag, which was the flag of a separatist movement, would go against the 1st Amendment. To get rid of what you claim as anti-American would involve being fundamentally anti-American. Censorship.

But I do think when someone from the North flies it, it more pertains to racism than any symbol of heritage. I have a friend who flies it just to be racist, and I tell him all the time "We won the war, why the hell are you flying their flag up here?"

[Rush Limbaugh]

For some reason I thought you'd agree with me Rush...go figure

Go Figure? I constantly argue the Souths right to secede . How could you think such a thing. Its no ore a Nazi flag than the stars ans stripes is. If the South had won we wouldnt even be arguing the matter.

[morteduzionism]

Go Figure? I constantly argue the Souths right to secede

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm only suggesting that what they stood for(and their flag) was opposed to the current type of government. A "United" States...

Its no ore a Nazi flag than the stars ans stripes is.

Huh!? I didn't imply it was...I only suggested that flying the flag in this country is tantamount to a Jewish person flying a Nazi flag...

...stop looking at the trees so you can see the forest

[Silver Guard]

I'm not suggesting otherwise. I'm only suggesting that what they stood for(and their flag) was opposed to the current type of government. A "United" States...

It is anti-establishment, not anti-American. The confederacy had a right to independence at the time, as much as the States had a right to independence from the British Empire which they fought for. Yet no one complains about a Union flag flying in Britain.

Huh!? I didn't imply it was...I only suggested that flying the flag in this country is tantamount to a Jewish person flying a Nazi flag...

Thats totally out of proportion, the confederacy sought freedom from the union, they did not exterminate Union citizens in a quest for racial purity...

...stop looking at the trees so you can see the forest

Stop turning a tree into a Forrest.

[Trax]

When talking about conederate frag you of course think the battle flag of the Army of Northern Virginia?

[Lord Condormanius]

Opinions...you say potato I say potatoe...I simply see "dissolving"(which is what "leaving" the union would do...since it wouldn't be the same union) as synonymous with destroying...

It would have been exactly the same Union, but with fewer members.

Let's agree to disagree.

I'm afraid I can't do that.

hmmm...once again we could split hairs and play verbal gymnastics...I don't want to...

I can only respond to the words that you write.

when I say "same category" that category would be called: Governments/Institutions that Repress People

Then you would be incorrect.

You/others will infer what you will from my choices of words...even when I tell you you're interpreting them wrong...there's nothing I can do about that

You can say we are interpreting your words incorrectly if you like, but think about this: when every response to your words is the same interpretation, doesn't that make you think that you may not have used to correct words to effectively communicate what you are trying to say? Because as it stands, when you say you would put the Confederacy in the same category as Nazis, that is comparing the two...putting them on the same level, if you will.

the "United" States of America was not pro-slavery.

The United States of America was far from being anti-slavery at the time. The Emancipation Proclamation was a tactical decision, not one based on morals. The North had no need for slavery, the economy of the South was dependent upon slave labor. Freeing the slaves was done in an effort to cripple the economy of the South, not out of righteousness.

the "United" States of America was for a strong central government. Those are characteristics of the "way of life" of the "United" States of America.

I suggest you read your Constitution.

So exactly how are you suggesting the Confederacy wasn't against that?(among other things)

The Confederacy was it's own union with its own central government.

As I said earlier "leaving the union" is synonymous with "destroying the union"...we just have to agree to disagree

No, leaving the union isn't synonymous with destroying the union. Again, the union was still there, it only would have had less members.

I wonder if flying an Al-Qaeda flag...:hmmm:

Does al Qaeda have a flag? If you are honestly saying that al Qaeda and the Confederacy are even close to being the same thing...I really don't know where to begin to tell you what is wrong with that.

whatchutalkinboutwillis!? They[Confederacy] stopped supporting the "union". I don't know anyway else to look at it. They[Confederacy] was anti "United" States...

They seceded from the union, so why would they support it? If you drop out of school, would you continue to pay the tuition? It doesn't mean you are anti-(whatever your school is), it just means that you don't go there anymore.

the key word is: united

Again, the Confederacy was united.

To you maybe. But...where you stand depends on where you sit

That doesn't make any sense at all. I suggest you get a little bit more education on the subject of the United States Civil War and the events leading up to it.

*I know there were other reasons for the Civil War besides slavery!

It would be more accurate to say that slavery was the smallest reason for the Civil War. In fact, slavery wasn't a cause at all. Freeing the slaves that lived in the Confederacy was an afterthought.

[LoZz]

the UK is a united kingdom, but people still fly there english, welsh and scottish flags etc.

[mongoose]

It would be more accurate to say that slavery was the smallest reason for the Civil War. In fact, slavery wasn't a cause at all. Freeing the slaves that lived in the Confederacy was an afterthought.

It is likely that the North didn't care that much about black slaves, but that doesn't change the fact that slavery was still a part of the confederate movement. Like wise, many westerners were very anti-semitic in the 30s and 40s, and the World War II wasn't really fought over helping the Jews, but Nazism is still anti-Jewish.


And I'm not saying that the Confederate and the Nazis are the same thing, I'm just using an analogy.

[Lord Condormanius]

It is likely that the North didn't care that much about black slaves, but that doesn't change the fact that slavery was still a part of the confederate movement.

Slavery was part of the United States at the time.

[mongoose]

Slavery was part of the United States at the time.

Regardless, the Confederate flag is intrinsically linked to slavery far more so than the United States in general. Likewise, member state of the Confederacy were, IIRC, required to allow slavery, which implies that slavery was actually MORE important to the south than states rights.

Again, most countries in the 1930s and 1940s were Jew hating, but that doesn't change the fact that the Swastika in praticular is a symbol of antisemitism.

[Thanatos]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ApvnA5x5NDU

That's all I have to say.

[IndianPrince]

Why not?

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Its hardly anti-american, its just two different ideologies of what people wanted the American States to be. Its like the European Union (^^) some people want it to be a super state (federal), some people just want it to be a confederation.

Isn't that the flag of the East India Company ??!!!

Prince