Europe Total War : War of Corruption

[General_Vladimir]

Hail all!!

Hahaha very true King Yngvar.

You still list Caliphate of Cordoue as a faction when it was long dead by 1100.

To Sinople: Maybe its time thinking of really getting rid of it. I'll advance my research to put the final nail in the coffin

To Cimbye: 2 turns mate ay, but still as Croatia I'm sure I could defeat any Hungarian army coming into my territory even if its on Very Hard

Yes he did invade, BUT it only became a vassalage in 1102 Thus even though the armies were invading, the Kingdom of Croatia still existed. Hey I got no quarrel with Hungary, I am Australian, 2nd generation Croatian which is the culture around me; but I look for historical accuracy. Being that 2 years is leverage then its a challenge for the players. Also all the Total War games are made so history is changed. It starts at 1100 so thats where it'll start and make it all historically accurate.

If that wasn't an ability to do, then who would seriously play any of the games. I mean I would but you would have strict guidelines.

By the way soon I shall post all my huge research notes, but Croatia anyways only starts with The southern part of Pannonia (with a different name) and Dalmatia. Everything else is either everyone elses or not theres. Thats the difficulty, 2 towns that need to be protected. Dubrovnik and Beograd or Sisak. Either way it'll be fun


Anyways cheers to everyone, take care ay! May your battles be successful and triumphant.

[Cimbye]

Pannonia was Hungarian from 897 to nowadays... It will be so easy to defeat the Hungarian armies? This isn't challenging

[Cimbye]

I think one town would be enough with a medium army in dalmatia. Zagreb should be a hungarian town. "The history of Zagreb dates as far back as 1094 when the Hungarian King Ladislaus founded a diocese" source http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zagreb Zagreb was already Hungarian territory so Coloman of Hungary just finished with invading dalmatia in 1105, what Ladislaus started.

[Cimbye]

The Kingdom of Hungary in 1100

[Cimbye]

He did invade BUT the vassalage stared in 1102 yes it's true BUT from 1092 to 1102 it was Hungarian territory the vassalage was only autonomy in the Hungarian Crown. from 1102 to 1105 was only dalmatia the "Kingdom of Croatia".

[Cimbye]

He did invade BUT the vassalage stared in 1102 yes it's true BUT from 1092 to 1102 it was Hungarian territory the vassalage was only autonomy in the Hungarian Crown. from 1102 to 1105 was only dalmatia the "Kingdom of Croatia".

[Cimbye]

Hups sorry

[Cimbye]

Hups sorry

[Cimbye]

******* something is wrong sorry

[Cimbye]

If you want independent Croatia, start the game earlier..about 1080

[General_Vladimir]

Hail!!

lol!! Man heres why its being added. It is true but the disintegration of the Kingdom of Croatia [b]did not happen until 1102. Hungary did invade Pannonia, but heres some info about the region of Pannonia which was called Littoral Croatia.

Littoral Croatia (in Croatian: "Primorska Hrvatska") was a medieval Croat duchy. The other name for this duchy is "Dalmatian Croatia" (Dalmatinska Hrvatska).
It was the biggest of medieval Croat duchies, before it united with Pannonian Croatia, during the reign of the king Tomislav in early 10. century.

Ok so Zagreb was first mentioned in the Hungarian histories BUT look at the region. It is in Pannonia, not in Dalmatia. Hungary never got to Dalmatia because the Venetians did before them.

But at this time until the announcement and practice of vassalagism under The Kingdom of Hungary in 1102, there was still a Kingdom of Croatia, even if it only contained Primorska Hrvatska and Dalmatia!!

So therefore in this period of time it cannot be excluded because it would be historically inaccurate. Seeming we want to make it one of the hardest factions in the game to play it will be interesting to see how to get it.

About the comment I made. I said it would be easy because I have finished MTW2 Campaign on the HARDEST difficulty many many times so I'm not afraid of a challenge, and I would expand the empire by the time Hungary tries to invade. And even if they do I'll put up a great fight and destroy everything I fight MUAHAHAHA

Even so it was still Kingdom of Croatia existed in the huge Dalmatian region and in Primorska Hrvatska, so it cannot be disputed!!! You want more facts I can give it to you because I've done all the research

[General_Vladimir]

Lets put some more coal onto the flames. Let me totally now expand the history of Croatia into this topic so it is once and for all pinned the nail into the coffin about it.

RESEARCH

Faction: Kingdom of Croatia

Regions: 2

Dalmatia

Settlement: Dubrovnik, Split, Sibenik, Nin, Biograd na Moru. Not sure which one as at 1100 ACE to be the settlement but I'm leaning towards Dubrovnik, Sibenik, Split or Biograd. Ask for more info on each if you need it.


History: The southern sections of inland Dalmatia were more fragmented, with the Duchies of Pagania (Narenta or the Principality of Narentines), Zahumlje (Hum), Travunia and Doclea/Zeta being occasionally prominent, especially in the later periods. The Serbian state of Rascia expanded at the expense of Travunia and Pagania in the 10th century. Zahumlje became a vassal of the new Croatian Kingdom in the early 10th century, while the Paganians joined the Croats in statehood in 1050. After the fall of Serbia in the second half of the 10th century, Duklja took over the leadership in the eastern part of the region creating a large kingdom in 1077. The Croatian Kingdom had its capital cities in Dalmatia: Biaći, Nin, Biograd, Šibenik (founded as a port of the Croatian kingdom, while Byzantium controlled Trogir and Split) Knin, Split, Omiš, Klis, Solin. In 1166-1168 the Serbian Grand Duke Stefan Nemanja took rule over the southern Dalmatian duchies.Croatian dukes and the Kingdom of Croatia ruled much of Dalmatia for extended periods from the ninth through to the eleventh centuries.

Littoral Croatia

Settlement: Sisak
History: Littoral Croatia (in Croatian: "Primorska Hrvatska") was a medieval Croat duchy. The other name for this duchy is "Dalmatian Croatia" (Dalmatinska Hrvatska).
It was the biggest of medieval Croat duchies, before it united with Pannonian Croatia, during the reign of the king Tomislav in early 10. century.

Information about the Kingdom of Croatia:

The Kingdom of Croatia was an independent state from circa 925 until 1102 covering most of what is today Croatia and Bosnia and Herzegovina in the Balkans. The state was ruled mostly by native Croats of Trpimirović dynasty until 1102, when the Kingdom of Hungary gained control of the state. After that, Croatia remained a distinct crown attached to that of Hungary until the abolition of the Austro-Hungarian Empire in 1918.

During parliament revolt in 1089 Zvonimir has been killed or he has comminted suicide. With no heir to succeed him, Stjepan II (1089–1091) of the main Trpimirović line came to the throne at an old age and reigned only two years. After his death it became apparent that Zvonimir's brother-in-law Ladislaus I of Hungary was the strongest candidate for the throne through his sister Jelena, Zvonimir's widow, who had much influence in Pannonian Croatia. Ladislaus' army penetrated Croatian territory after Stjepan's death, and quickly occupied all of Pannonia, after which they were met with some unorganised resistance in Dalmatia. The Emperor Alexius I sent the Cumans to attack the Hungarians and forced them to retreat from Croatia. Alexius did, however, allow the Hungarian Prince Álmos to rule over Slavonia.
In 1093, the Croatian feudal lords, strugglin to remain independent of Hungary, elected a new Croat king, Petar Svačić (1093–1097). He managed to unify the kingdom around Knin and banish Álmos from Slavonia (1095). However, Ladislaus' successor, Coloman, came to power in that year. He made peace with Pope Urban II and led an army into Croatia in 1097. Petar Svačić was defeated in the Battle of Gvozd Mountain and killed. When Coloman and his forces were called back to the northeast to fight the Ruthenians and Cumans in Galicia in 1099, the Croatian nobles took the chance to liberate themselves from Hungarian rule.
However, when Coloman returned in 1102, they yielded and recognised him as the common king for Croatia and Hungary in a treaty often referred to as the Pacta Conventa. Though its independence was lost by entering into a personal union with Hungary, it never became a part of the Kingdom of Hungary but was rather a separate kingdom, most of the time a vassal but sometimes an equal. There were periods when Croatia acted completely on its own. Coloman retained the institution of the Sabor and relieved the Croatians of taxes on their land. Coloman's successors continued to crown themselves as Kings of Croatia separatley in Biograd na Moru until the time of Bela IV. In the 14th century a new term came arose to describe the collection of de jure independent states under the rule of the Hungarian king: Archiregnum Hungaricum (Lands of the Crown of Saint Stephen).


References:

http://www.cliffordawright.com/caw/f...c_id/22/id/27/
http://www.jewishsf.com/content/2-0-...playstory.html
http://www.dubrovnik.hr/web_grad_eng/city.htm
http://www.glas-koncila.hr/rubrike_i...?news_ID=11154
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dalmatia
http://www.sisak.hr/
http://www.dzs.hr/default_e.htm
http://www.zum.de/whkmla/region/balk...at8021102.html
http://bogjejedan.blogspot.com/
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom...%28Medieval%29
http://www.geocities.com/Athens/1336/croatia/
http://www-personal.umich.edu/~imlad...tianRulers.htm
http://www.raceandhistory.com/Science/croatia.htm
http://links.jstor.org/sici?sici=003...3E2.0.CO%3B2-9
http://www.magma.ca/~rendic/chapter4.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Gvozd_Mountain

Now was it not for the killing of Petar Svacic in 1097 in The Battle of Gvozd Mountain; Coloman wouldn't be able to crown himself as King of Croatia. Remember that although he was king of Croatia from a seperate state Hungary, Croatia itself still remained Kingdom of Croatia because Hungary never assimilated Croatia, rather made it a subject. As thus as stated that:

...the Croatian nobles took the chance to liberate themselves from Hungarian rule.

The Croatian Nobles took the chance to liberate themselves from Hungarian Rule. So at the time of 1100, 3 years after the death of Petar Svacic in 1097 at The Battle of Gvozd, they still remained completely independent as the Kingdom of Croatia

Now that is why it should be added in this time frame. With Dalmatia which is a clear definate because Hungary never took the Dalmatian Coastline

ahumlje became a vassal of the new Croatian Kingdom in the early 10th century, while the Paganians joined the Croats in statehood in 1050. After the fall of Serbia in the second half of the 10th century, Duklja took over the leadership in the eastern part of the region creating a large kingdom in 1077. The Croatian Kingdom had its capital cities in Dalmatia: Biaći, Nin, Biograd, Šibenik (founded as a port of the Croatian kingdom, while Byzantium controlled Trogir and Split) Knin, Split, Omiš, Klis, Solin. In 1166-1168 the Serbian Grand Duke Stefan Nemanja took rule over the southern Dalmatian duchies.Croatian dukes and the Kingdom of Croatia ruled much of Dalmatia for extended periods from the ninth through to the eleventh centuries.
[edit] Rivalry between Venice, Byzantium, Croatia and Hungary

The Romance population of Dalmatia started to develop coastal cities like Dubrovnik and Zadar, where the maritime commerce promoted a rich and powerful development.
The Republic of Venice made several attempts from the tenth century to attain control of the Dalmatian islands and city-states, while Byzantium also preserved an influence on them. This Byzantine influence faded towards the end of the eleventh century, by which time the Kingdom of Hungary also expanded its influence southwards when Croatia yielded to Hungarian rule resulting in the Pacta conventa agreement.
The 13th, 14th and 15th centuries were marked by a rivalry between Venice and the Hungarian kingdom, as the Byzantine influence had fully faded.
In 1346, Dalmatia was struck by the Black Death. The economic situation was also poor, and the cities became more and more dependent on Venice. During this period, Dalmatia was briefly ruled by Croatian magnates Šubić[citation needed], the first Bosnian kings , and contested by the Angevins and Sigismund, Holy Roman Emperor in the early 15th century, but the end result of this conflict was that the Venetians took control of most of Dalmatia by 1420.
(Unfortunately from Wikipedia....)

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...he_Balkans.jpg



The 2nd you can clearly see what I was talking about the clear distinctions of the two. Dalmatia and Littoral Croatia.

1st is an old map but shows you Pannonia, which at 1100 wasn't all Croatian of course. Only a minor part of it was Croatian Kingdom. Sisak is also quite south from Zagreb, therefore it is part of the Kingdom of Croatia. If the mod was only aloud to have 1 region for Croatia it would be extremely difficult (Not that I would be complaining )

As shown with the information (from wikipedia) Dalmatia never even crossed the realms of Hungary until the 13th, 14th, and 15th century Thus Dalmatia can be a strong region that the Kingdom of Croatia is systematically centred upon. Littoral Croatia of course was under pressure from the Kingdom of Hungary, but Sisak always remained in the firm grasp of Croatian hands until of course the attack of the Ottomans in the 15th - 16th centuries.

What else do I have to explain to show you that the Kingdom of Croatia existed at this time period? I showed that Littoral Croatia and Dalmatia were in the firm control of Croatian hands as at 1100. That at 1100 Croatia had its independence. At 1100 although weakened they still had a stable platform. Therefore it is a very strong contendor, and with the map that sinople originally is using it comes from a credible source. It is a website which makes maps and sells them for hefty prices. Such maps wouldn't be rubbish and historically inaccurate.


[WOT]{Emp}General_Vladimir

[Cimbye]

It's not true that Hungay never got dalmatia.

The Republic of Venice made several attempts from the tenth century to attain control of the Dalmatian islands and city-states, while Byzantium also preserved an influence on them. This Byzantine influence faded towards the end of the eleventh century, by which time the Kingdom of Hungary also expanded its influence southwards when Croatia yielded to Hungarian rule resulting in the Pacta conventa agreement.

The 13th, 14th and 15th centuries were marked by a rivalry between Venice and the Hungarian kingdom, as the Byzantine influence had fully faded.

South pannonia in the 10th century maybe but it's 1100. Kingdom of Croatia is exsisted but only as part of the Hungaian crown.

[Cimbye]

[Cimbye]

[sinople]

OK,

SO we can think of delete the Califate of Cordoue and put the Ottoman Empire instead, but for another version (a 2.0 I think)


And for your historical "war", I think I'll start the mod earlier ( 1090 I think), like that the Kingdoms of Croatia will be an independant faction.

If you have any suggestion, question, or something to say, post

[sinople]

Just a question for historians : when was the Teutonic Order created ? (when will it appeared in the mod)

[Cimbye]

OK,

SO we can think of delete the Califate of Cordoue and put the Ottoman Empire instead, but for another version (a 2.0 I think)


And for your historical "war", I think I'll start the mod earlier ( 1090 I think), like that the Kingdoms of Croatia will be an independant faction.

If you have any suggestion, question, or something to say, post

Yes I think this is correct Start the mod in 1090 or 1080 and Croatia can be an independent kingdom and it could build an empire

[Cimbye]

The Teutonic Order Formed at the end of the 12th century in Acre, Palestine, the medieval Order played an important role in Outremer, controlling the port tolls of Acre.After Christian forces were defeated in the Middle East, the Order moved to Transylvania in 1211 to help defend Hungary against the Cumans. They were expelled in 1225 after allegedly attempting to place themselves under Papal instead of Hungarian sovereignty.

[Cimbye]

i think it should appear about 1240-50