Cvria Ivlia, Consulate of Ancus/Lepidus

[Kritias]

Marcvs Ivnivs Brvtvs stands:

I agree with Cicero!We should destroy them for this insult against Rome!Not only we have lost a Consul because of them but also a legionary Eagle!Rome must be avenged!

[sanada]

(ooc) I don't have many decent screen shots for this battle

"The battle started off in a peculiar way, in the middle of the field stood the 3rd Italica Legio, behind the 3rd was the 4th and the 1st Decius, me and Cassius were roughly 5 minutes march from Pompilius position. Ahead of Pompilius were two Gallic armies, on his right a very nasty threat to his flank became as 500 Gauls marched into view.

Out plan was to form up a line across the battlefield, I gave my self the task of holding the left flank, Cassius the Lewd commander of the 4th Italica took the center - his legion been less depleted then the others, and of course Cassius Pompilius held the right.

As the fighting commenced - a light snow began to fall, as beautiful as it was, it confused our movements.

Soon maniples marched to far ahead of the main force, and became engulfed.

I rushed forward from my position to save one such Maniple, some Hasatai had marched to far, and were now surround by spearman and elite warriors.



This action drew the attention of Pompilius, and Captain Segovax. Soon I was involved in some of the most bitter fighting of that day.



Their are countless examples of bravery that day, Cassius the Lewd was killed even I was struck down by a spear.



When news reached his Legion, the 4th, of his death, they began to withdraw from the field, soon the center started to collapse, and our lines were stretched apart, but still we did not waver, I saw units of Tiarii, the upper echelons of society fight to the last along side Velites - the beggars and vagabonds of society.

The battle was won, after two hours of fighting, Rome had prevailed. We lost over half our men that day, .



I merged the legions together, and marched them out of the Alps, I will be returning their soon to command the fresh Legions, and hopefully take Aventicum.

Roma Victor"

[We shall fwee...Wode]

We reign supreme. At a cost I admit, but we knew casualties in war are to be expected. May I ask how many legions we have excluding those fighting to take Aventicum? I would like to know our current strength if we are to wage war with these beasts.

[sanada]

We have four Legions, two are currently heading towards Aventicum, and another two are retraining.

The 2nd Legio Italica (led by Nero) will be ready for active service though.

I would like permission to split the 1st Decius Legio, so as to reform the 3rd and 4th Italica Legio's - this would add two more Legions to our Republic.

[Winter]

I don't think you need permission to merge legions in the field, do you? I always did it without asking...

[We shall fwee...Wode]

He wants to un-merge(is that a word?) the legions. He wants to split the 1st into the 3rd and 4th. I think the Consul should have permission to do this.

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

yea 1 - nay 0

OOC: Why is this called the cvria jvlia when the cvria jvlia wasn't built until 29bc? shouldn't be the Cvria Hostilvs?

[sanada]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 2 - Nay 0

[Winter]

Because apparently the Curia Iulia is still relatively intact, and I used pictures of it in the first discussion thread. No other reason.

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 3 - Nay 0

This should just be a consular decision, not a senate one.

[Kritias]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 4 - Nay 0

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 5 - Nay 0

[Maxinius Scipio]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 6 - Nay 0

[♔Jean-Luc Picard♔]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 7 - Nay 0

i would like an update on the number of legions, where they are, and how many men they contain.

G F Aquilinus

[Kritias]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 8 - Nay 0

[EmperorCharles]

Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 9 - Nay 0

Now senators must bring up something form the last administration, the controversial Lex Economica et Civila. I believe the arguments are done on both sides so let us vote and have done.

Original bill:0
Amended bill:1
No bill:0

[Kritias]

Princeps Senatus Votes Update:

A)Motion to occupy\enslave\exterminate the Populace of Aventicum,after the Eagle is retrieved.Copy and paste the letter "O" for occupation,"E" for enslavement and finally "X" for extermination.

AVENTICUM: XXXXXXXXO
Abstain:1
B)Motion to sack Aventicum (destroy all the buildings in it):

Yay- 2 Nay- 5
C)Allow splitting of Decius's legion to form 2

Yea 9 - Nay 0

D)ECONOMICA ET CIVILA BILL:
Original bill:1
Amended bill:1
No bill:0

[Marcus Tullius Cicero]

D)ECONOMICA ET CIVILA BILL:
Original bill:2
Amended bill:1
No bill:0

[sanada]

Legion Report

1st Legio Italica INACTIVE
Rome
Spurius the Thinker
854 Men

2nd Legio Italica INACTIVE
Capua
Nero Fronto
261 Men

3rd Legio Italica & 4th Legio Italica merged with the 1st Decius, soon to be re-established.

5th Legio Italica ACTIVE
Massilia
Placus Galienus
1204 Men

1st Decius Legio INACTIVE
Cisalpine Gaul
Decius Loreius Ancus
1050 Men (supplemented with troops from the 3rd & 4th Legio Italica)


2nd Decius Legio ACTIVE
Massilia
Flavius Agricola
1623 Men (supplemented with Mercenaries)

The Italica Legions are those that hail from the Italian Peninsular
The Decius Legions are those that were Levied to fight the Gauls

----------------------------------------------------------------------
D)ECONOMICA ET CIVILA BILL:
Original bill:3
Amended bill:1
No bill:0

[Kritias]

So that we all know what we are voting upon:

a)the original Economica et Civila bill:

Lex Economica et Civila

By Marcus Junius Brutus Major of the Optimates

And

Micaelis Horatius Malleolus of the Populares.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Section 1

General Economic Section

All acts that can be carried whether or not we are at war.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
§1.The Consular Budget:

The active Consul will be provided with a limited budget with which he can build units and buildings on his term.

§1.1:

This budget will be decided after the deliberation of the Senate and upon the request of the Consul. This budget will be the highest amount of money spent on military and civic constructions as well as the recruitment of additional men; the active Consul will be expected to post pictures of the financial tub for every year of his term

§1.2

If this limit is exceeded the Consul can ask for an extended contract.

§1.3

If the limit decided by the Senate in either §1.1 or §1.2 is exceeded and the Consul does not announce it in the Senatus he will be held responsible for thieving of public treasure and thus be condemned to a sentence decided by his colleague, the Junior Consul, the Censor and the Princeps Senatus.

§1.4

The amount of money can vary between 50.000-200.000 denarii depending on the will of the Senatus and the request of the Consul.

§1.4.1

Junior Consul can veto the request of the Consul before it is placed before the Senators if he sees that is over-estimated demand.

§1.5

It will take at least 8 Yay votes before the motion for the Consular budget is passed.


§2.Money use on Diplomacy:

It will be the active Consul’s power to ask for money in return for alliance, trade rights, and military passage etc from other nations.

§2.1

While he can ask for any price, doing the act itself will require the consent of the Senatus.

§2.2The Consul can on extreme occasions and with the full backing of the senate, bribe characters or even armies if the Consular budget can cover the price asked .

§2.2

If the Consul bribes any force or entity without the full consent of the Senate he will be held responsible for thieving of public treasure and thus be condemned to a sentence decided by his colleague, the Junior Consul, the Censor and the Princeps Senatus.

§3.War Compensations:

If a nation is exhausted from its war against Res Publica, it will be the right of the Consul to ask for war compensations.

§3.1

The price asked will be decided between the two Consuls and the Censor and it will need at least the backing of 60% of the Senators to get it carried.

§3.1.1

Whether the war compensations are paid in advance or in terms, it will be in the decision of the Consul.


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Section 2

Occasion Based Economy
This section determines the economic acts of the Republic during war, peace and if passed dictatorship periods.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

§1.Peace time Economics.

§1.1:Taxation.

§1.1.1
All cities granted citizenship status will have their taxes pressed down to Low

§1.1.2

The cities named as Peregrini provinces will have their taxes to normal-low depending on civic order of the given province

§1.1.3

All regions named as Barbarous will have their taxes set to normal no matter what the civic order is in the settlement.

§1.2

Taxes cannot be raised during peace time in any of these provinces types, except from the Economical Crisis period which is explained in Section 2, §1.3 and §2.2.

§1.3:Budget and Constructional Programs.

During peace time, all effort should be to better the infrastructure of the Res Publica, thus at the end of each term, when the Censor checks the previous Consul, he must make an announcement in the senate on what by his opinion needs improvement.

§1.4

This announcement will determine the final budget given to the Senior Consul. Further, during peace time, Constructional Programs will be set forth by the Censor with the co-operation of the Senior Consul. These CP will be by priority status:

a) On Public Health.
b) On Economy promoting structures.
c) On Civic, Religion and entertainment.
d) On Army infrastructure.
e) On Naval infrastructure.

§1.5

The construction of governmental buildings will not be based to CP but to the will of the Senior Consul.

§1.3:Economic Crisis periods during Pax Time.

When the Res Publica is in economic crisis periods, that is, when the net in flow is lower that the net out income and the construction\recruitment plays small role on this situation, it will be the power of the Consul to raise taxes for a maximum of two years in order to get the economy back on track. To do so, he must respect the fact that roman and peregrine provinces must have the honor of lower taxes that the Barbarous regions.

§1.3.1

It will fall to the latter province type to hold the largest part of the increased taxation but as soon as the crisis is abated they will have their taxes set to low for a period of 3 years, in order to let their economy recover.

§1.3.2

If a new economical crisis starts within the five years period, it will be the peregrine provinces time to step in and be taxed out for two years; If that happens though, the taxes on those provinces will be set to low for the following 5 years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

§2:War-time Economy.

During war time, Consul’s attention should be on recruitment plus military infrastructure as well as economy etc. If these (recruitment and military infrastructure) are developed to the satisfied level, then the Consul can continue all actions as if we were on peace time.

§2.1:Taxation.

During war periods it is the responsibility of the citizens of the Res Publica to support our legions on war.

§2.1.1

The cities given Roman citizenship will not be taxed further than low as they support Rome with the men sent to serve in Her armies.

§2.1.2

Peregrini and Barbarous regions alike will be taxed Normal as to get the money required to conduct war operations.

§2.2:Economical Crisis during war time.

If such a disastrous event hits the Republic then, and only then, will be appropriate to further tax the Roman citizens.

§2.3

When the economical crisis abates, the taxes on Roman Populace will be dropped to low for a period of years.

§2.3.1If between that period an other economic crisis occurs, then it will be the duty of barbarous regions to be taxed highly in order to avoid economic destruction of the Populi Romani.

§2.4:Regional War Tax

If the Res Publica finds herself in war with a neighboring nation, the cities adjacent to the enemy possessions shall have their taxes raised up. These denarii will be used for the conduct of war, recruit more men and the repair of the damages in war-torn provinces.

§2.4.1

If deemed necessary the Senate can impose the Regional War Tax to the cities that lie beyond the first line of cities, adjusting with the enemy. This of course will require a vote from the Senatus.

§2.4.2

The Regional War Tax will not be imposed to Barbarous or Peregrine provinces that have joined Res Publica for less than a period of 10 years.

B)The Amended Proposal:

Section 1

General Economic Section

All acts that can be carried whether or not we are at war.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
§1.The Consular Budget

The active Consul will be provided with a limited budget with which he can build units and buildings on his term.

§1.1

This budget will be decided after the deliberation of the Senate and upon the request of the Consul. This budget will be the highest amount of money spent on military and civic constructions (The consul's authority should only be over the military infrastructure and legions. Public buildings should be supplied by the Republic through the Censor or Senate. After all, if the Consul is away at war, how can he possibly manage civic duties?) as well as the recruitment of additional men; the active Consul will be expected to post pictures of the financial tub for every year of his term

§1.2

If this limit is exceeded The Consul can ask for an extended contract if he feels he will surpass the budget. (Waiting until the budget is exceeded means that the Consul could already face prosecution. Since the Consul is a position of responsibility, he should be required to request needed funds before overspending.)

§1.3

If the limit decided by the Senate in either §1.1 or §1.2 is exceeded and the Consul does not announce it in the Senatus he will be held responsible for thieving of public treasure and thus be condemned to a sentence decided by his colleague, the Junior Consul, the Censor and the Princeps Senatus.

§1.4

The amount of money can vary between 50.000-200.000 25,000-150,000 (Since it should be just military infrastructure and recruitment, the limit should be lowered.) denarii depending on the will of the Senatus and the request of the Consul.

§1.4.1

Junior Consul can veto the request of the Consul before it is placed before the Senators if he sees that is over-estimated demand. (Unneccesary. Having to go through the Junior Consul before the Senate is time consuming, and he can veto it within the Senate. Privacy is not needed here.)

§1.5

It will take at least 8 Yay majority before the motion for the Consular budget is passed.


§2.Money use on Diplomacy:

It will be the active Consul’s power to ask for money in return for alliance, trade rights, and military passage etc (Far too vague) from other nations.

§2.1

While he can ask for any price, doing the act itself will require the consent of the Senatus.

§2.2

The Consul can on extreme occasions and with the full backing of the senate, bribe characters or even armies if the Consular budget can cover the price asked.

§2.2

If the Consul bribes any force or entity without the full consent of the Senate he will be held responsible for thieving of public treasure and thus be condemned to a sentence decided by his colleagues, the Junior Consul, the Censor and the Princeps Senatus.

§3.War Compensations:

If a nation is exhausted from its war against Res Publica, it will be the right of the Consul to ask for war compensations.

§3.1

The price asked will be decided between the two Consuls and the Censor and it will need at least the backing of 60% of the Senators to get it carried.

§3.1.1

Whether the war compensations are paid in advance or in terms, it will be in the decision of the Consul.

(If the nation is exhausted, how will they be able to pay war compensation?)


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Section 2

Occasion Based Economy
This section determines the economic acts of the Republic during war, peace and if passed dictatorship periods.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

§1.Peace time Economics.

§1.1: Taxation.

§1.1.1
All cities granted citizenship status will have their taxes pressed down to Low

§1.1.2

The cities named as Peregrini provinces will have their taxes to normal-low depending on civic order of the given province

§1.1.3

All regions named as Barbarous will have their taxes set to normal no matter what the civic order is in the settlement.

(This is inadvisable because the resulting population boom would quickly outdistance our facilities in the city. Taxes should be based on happiness and population growth to prevent rioting from over-populated cities.)

§1.2

Taxes cannot be raised during peace time in any of these provinces types, except from the Economical Crisis period which is explained in Section 2, §1.3 and §2.2.

(Taxes should be dynamic depending on the city’s status at the time. If the Republic is to run smoothly, it needs constant fine-tuning not a set standard.)

§1.3: Budget and Constructional Programs.

During peace time, all effort should be to better the infrastructure of the Res Publica, thus at the end of each term, when the Censor checks the previous Consul, he must make an announcement in the senate on what by his opinion needs improvement.

§1.4

This announcement will determine the final budget given to the Senior Consul. Further, during peace time, Constructional Programs will be set forth by the Censor with the co-operation of the Senior Consul. These CP will be by priority status:

a) On Public Health.
b) On Economy promoting structures.
c) On Civic, Religion and entertainment.
d) On Army infrastructure.
e) On Naval infrastructure.

(This will only hinder the progress of the Republic. There are standard buildings that province's must have to keep the plebs happy. Additionally, if we never prepare for war while we are not pressed, we will always be at a disadvantage when it the time for military action occurs.)

§1.5

The construction of governmental buildings will not be based to CP but to the will of the Senior Consul.

§1.3: Economic Crisis periods during Pax Time.

When the Res Publica is in economic crisis periods, that is, when the net in flow is lower that the net out income and the construction\recruitment plays small role on this situation, it will be the power of the Consul to find and fix the problem. raise taxes for a maximum of two years in order to get the economy back on track. To do so, he must respect the fact that roman and peregrine provinces must have the honor of lower taxes that the Barbarous regions.

§1.3.1

It will fall to the latter province type to hold the largest part of the increased taxation but as soon as the crisis is abated they will have their taxes set to low for a period of 3 years, in order to let their economy recover. (This would cause major civil disruption. A few murmurings from a handful of disgruntled Roman Citizens is preferable to constant strife in the borders.)

§1.3.2

If a new economical crisis starts within the five year period the Consul failed in his responsibility and should either be replaced or be given a final chance to find and rectify the source of the economic problem. , it will be the peregrine provinces time to step in and be taxed out for two years; If that happens though, the taxes on those provinces will be set to low for the following 5 years.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

§2: War-time Economy.

During war time, Consul’s attention should be on recruitment plus military infrastructure as well as economy etc. (Far too vague.) If these (recruitment and military infrastructure) are developed to the satisfied level, then the Consul can continue all actions as if we were on peace time.

§2.1: Taxation.

During war periods it is the responsibility of the citizens of the Res Publica to support our legions on war.

§2.1.1

The cities given Roman citizenship will not be taxed further than low as they support Rome with the men sent to serve in Her armies.

(In times of war, financial compensation is already gathered from across the Republic.)

§2.1.2

Peregrini and Barbarous regions alike will be taxed Normal as to get the money required to conduct war operations.

(Again, taxes should be based on the unique situation of each city.)

§2.2: Economical Crisis during war time.

If such a disastrous event hits the Republic a deficit is achieved then, and only then, will be appropriate to further tax the Roman citizens past their current needed tax rate.

§2.3

When the economical crisis abates, the taxes on Roman Populace will be dropped to low for a period of years their needed rate depending on their status.

§2.3.1

If between that period an other economic crisis occurs, then it will be the duty of barbarous regions to be taxed highly in order to avoid economic destruction of the Populi Romani.

(This will only lead to revolt in those regions that are discontent with Roman rule and is unneeded. With responsible handling of finances, economic deficits should never be achieved. Newly conquered or barbarous cities should not pay the price for magistrates' incompetence.)

§2.4: Regional War Tax

If the Res Publica finds herself in war with a neighboring nation, the cities adjacent to the enemy possessions shall have their taxes raised up. These denarii will be used for the conduct of war, recruit more men and the repair of the damages in war-torn provinces.

§2.4.1

If deemed necessary the Senate can impose the Regional War Tax to the cities that lie beyond the first line of cities, adjusting with the enemy. This of course will require a vote from the Senatus.

§2.4.2

The Regional War Tax will not be imposed to Barbarous or Peregrine provinces that have joined Res Publica for less than a period of 10 years.

(Outlying provinces are already under economic stress since enemy armies pillage them. Adding extra taxation will only further their distress. A special tax should not be required, since all repairs and military recruitment is already funded centrally by the Republic in Rome. If more funds are needed, then the Republic as a whole should share the burden.)

C)Reasons FOR the amended bill:
please sum them up and I will edit them here.

D)Reasons AGAINST the amended bill:
Bellow arguments against all amended parts of the E&C Act.

Section 1.
1.1:I strongly disagree with the changes made.If we give the responsibility to the Censor and the vote of the Senate that would be EXTREMELY slow if we just gave the consul the budget to build any civic building without delaying the whole campaign down in order to achieve a positive vote
.None would like to wait for a day or so to build a market,while he could claiming the walls of a city...Also you said how can a consul lead the Constructive Programs when in campaign..Check my consulate and see for yourself.

1.2:Agreed.

1.4:I disagree for the reason said above.Senior Consul should be given liberty to build whatever and whenever he likes.So he has an extended budget.
1.4.1:Time consuming but also a way to coordinate the two Consuls to get a common decision.In the end,which is most consuming?10 minutes of chatting on xfire between the two consuls to get a standard price or a day debating in the senate?

2:Agreed,I will have the "etc" cleared out.

3.War compensations:Well that would be their problem now,wouldn't it?All should know that there is a price when attacking the Senatus Populous que Romanus!

Section 2: Occasion Based Economy.

1.1-1.1.3:I disagree completely;Taxes should be based on the citizenship of the city or not.I doubt the argument on over-population because:

a.we will have built through all entertainment and religious facilities to provide enough public order to cover any discontent citizens.
b.We will always need soldiers to serve in the army;I doubt we will have any city over-populated because all cities will due time or circumstance be levied of the extra population.
c.We can always use the extra population to Romanize peregrini or barbarous provinces.

1.2:This standard set of taxes provides the much needed stability to our citizens.I wouldn't want them to fear of what will happen the next year and if they will be in the run from money lenders or not because of the dynamic management you propose.

1.4:Explained above the reason I find this part necessary.
1.3 Economic crisis:Agreed.But what if what needs fixing requires a lot of cash?Its still necessary to point out when it will be appropriate the over-taxation of a Province.

1.3.1:I would rather have the Roman citizens content at all times.I say,what is the point of being the conqueror when you pay more than the conquered.VAE VICTIS...
1.3.2:The economic problem may be the long time effect of a wrong decision from a previous Consul.Why have a man pay the price for the dept of an other?

War time Economy
2.1.1:No it is not.The taxes raised during the war with Pyrrhus was case-specific.This act on the other hand gives a taxes raise every time we are at war.
2.1.2:I disagree;why have a citizen paying more than the conquered?What's the point of being a citizen if that applies?Shouldn't all citizens be enlisted for tax lowering and other privileges???
2.2:I don't get the opposition here;
2.3:Same argument as all concerning taxation.

2.3.1:Same answer.
Regional War-Tax:Provinces that are near the enemy should pay the funds needed.Why tax the entire Res Publica for some extra cash when we need only few?Also this Part is of Malleolus and after his heroic death I will have it made,to honor him.

[Winter]

D)ECONOMICA ET CIVILA BILL:
Original bill:3
Amended bill:2
No bill:0

I now see how this amended bill will keep unnecessary powers from the Consul, something we should all rally behind.

[Kritias]

Lepidus,its:

D)ECONOMICA ET CIVILA BILL:
Original bill:3
Amended bill:2
No bill:0

You probably didn't count Ancus's vote...