PRO DEO ET REGE: CILICIAN ARMENIA

[Socal_infidel]

DISMOUNTED NAKHARAR (Armour Upgrade): This is the armour upgrade version...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cheers!

[Socal_infidel]

ASPET JAVELIN CAVALRY:

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

ASPET JAVELIN CAVALRY (Armour Upgrade):

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Please note the shields are just placeholders until real ones are done.

Cheers!

[AlphaDelta]

You should credit us with the roster design and unit names as they are both near identical to ours. Infact this is true for practically every faction so far.

The units look good however.

Cheers

[Drtad]

Okay, I took a look at the list and the first couple of comments I'd like to make are concerning the Aspets. Aspets, according to the info I have been able to compile, were simply cavalry during ancient times, but during the Medieval era this meaning evolved into the equivalent of a Western knight, which is especially apparent in some cavalry depictions during the Bagratuni period (850-1065). What I'd suggest is changing the name of the current Aspets to Azats, and take out the "Latin Knight" unit. Also, in the overview at the beginning it makes quite a few errors:

1. The Kingdom of Cilician Armenia was founded in 1080, not 1081.
2. They spelled Tigran as Tighran (just a small error).
3. Tigran's empire had control of Cilicia from about 85BC-66BC.
4. Armenians had been fleeing Armenia mostly since Ani was betrayed into Byzantine hands in 1045, not after Manzikert (Ruben was a noble, nobles fled mostly after Turks took over)

Also, remember that numerous Armenia principalities existed in 1080. There was Cilicia, which was based at Trazark (in 1080, at least), Edessa, Cappadocia (based at Caesarea), Chersianon, Antioch, etc. Thus, the Armenian Cilician faction would have a buffer of independant Armenian states and would be more historical.

[Rex Armeniae]

Awesome units
Thumbsup!!!

You should credit us with the roster design and unit names as they are both near identical to ours

hmm, did BC invent the name Aspet and Nakharar?
The only big thing that would be similiar to BC would be if there would to be a Border unit.

Almost all Armenian factions have Aspets or Azats and Nakharars.

[Jihada]

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/IV2.html


might be of interest.

[Socal_infidel]

Awesome units
Thumbsup!!!


hmm, did BC invent the name Aspet and Nakharar?
The only big thing that would be similiar to BC would be if there would to be a Border unit.

Almost all Armenian factions have Aspets or Azats and Nakharars.

True, but I do owe a great deal of debt to AD & Ahiga for giving the framework to go on. I couldn't have done it without their work for sure.

Nor can I match AD's quality. He's amazing. It's like the difference between Sony and Coby...

http://www.fanaticus.org/DBA/armies/IV2.html


might be of interest.

Yeah, I've seen that. Good stuff there.

[Drtad]

May I suggest a few name changes:

1. Cilician Spearmen-Rhamik Spearmen. Rhamiks were the high peasant class of Armenia. They made up the bulk of the army and are essentially well armed freemen, meaning that they would be rather inexperienced, but hardy troops.

2. I am thinking of two ossible names for the Anatolian and Cilician cavalry units, but Rhamik Cavalry seems like the only alternative name. Perhaps the Cilician Horsemen could be called Rhamik cavalry while the "Anatolian" cavalry are renamed Frontier Cavalry? Frontiersmen (like the Caucasian Mountaineers) were essential to the Armenian military due to the rugged nature of Cilicia.

[Socal_infidel]

May I suggest a few name changes:

1. Cilician Spearmen-Rhamik Spearmen. Rhamiks were the high peasant class of Armenia. They made up the bulk of the army and are essentially well armed freemen, meaning that they would be rather inexperienced, but hardy troops.

2. I am thinking of two ossible names for the Anatolian and Cilician cavalry units, but Rhamik Cavalry seems like the only alternative name. Perhaps the Cilician Horsemen could be called Rhamik cavalry while the "Anatolian" cavalry are renamed Frontier Cavalry? Frontiersmen (like the Caucasian Mountaineers) were essential to the Armenian military due to the rugged nature of Cilicia.

To be sure there will be some changes to the unit roster. I like to give myself some outline to work with. Thanks for these name suggestions.

Incidentally, which settlement would be of higher importance in the Armenian Highlands - Ani or Erevan?

Also, what do you think about possibly adding Silifke to the map? It would give Armenia an opportunity to expand westward slightly and would be a stronghold to defend Turk attacks.

Thanks!

[Drtad]

Incidentally, which settlement would be of higher importance in the Armenian Highlands - Ani or Erevan?

Well, in the early game Ani would be more major, but Yerevan rose to prominence later after Ani was destroyed, so it is your choice.

Also, what do you think about possibly adding Silifke to the map? It would give Armenia an opportunity to expand westward slightly and would be a stronghold to defend Turk attacks.

Silifke? I don't know what that is, might be a Turkified name of a city? In any case, three cities I'd suggest for implementation would be Hromkla which was the seat of the Armenian Catholicos (Armenian Orthodox Pope, essentially), Anazarbe, or Tarsus. Anazarbe was th site of a major battle between Byzantium and Armenia which ensured Armenia's rise to power. Also, Anazarbe was held by the Greeks in 1080.

Thanks!

No problem.

[Rex Armeniae]

True, but I do owe a great deal of debt to AD & Ahiga for giving the framework to go on. I couldn't have done it without their work for sure.

Nor can I match AD's quality. He's amazing. It's like the difference between Sony and Coby...

Hehe, my bad
Yup, AD is a mod Icon... he is amazingly amazing lol

In armenian highlands you should have Ani, Van and Yerevan


The red marked are those three cities I pointed out above.
The greens are other cities that are important around the area

[Drtad]

Kars could be another solid choice... It really could be a number of them, its up to you.

[Zephrelial]

Let's try this again...
DISMOUNTED NAKHARAR: This is the non-armour upgrade version...

Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 

Cheers!

Hey aren't those brand new models that looks totally unique? :hmmm: I see...

Well in that case SI,the meshes or your life!!

Great work

EDIT:

A Question to armenian scholars of twc.. Did the Armenian Kingdom possesed a heavy cavalry unit that resembled cataphracts of the ancient age? :hmmm:

[Drtad]

A Question to armenian scholars of twc.. Did the Armenian Kingdom possesed a heavy cavalry unit that resembled cataphracts of the ancient age? :hmmm:

In the early era of the kingdom perhaps (1080-1200), but after the Latin reforms instigated by King Levon II, any vestiges of cataphract tactics were replaced with Latin type Aspet cavalry, and the nakharars also were transformed into Latin type units. Javelin cavalry also became extinct.

[Zephrelial]

In the early era of the kingdom perhaps (1080-1200), but after the Latin reforms instigated by King Levon II, any vestiges of cataphract tactics were replaced with Latin type Aspet cavalry, and the nakharars also were transformed into Latin type units. Javelin cavalry also became extinct.

Thanks for the reply as well as the clarification Drtad.Were they referred to as "cataphracts" back in the early era then?

[Drtad]

Thanks for the reply as well as the clarification Drtad.Were they referred to as "cataphracts" back in the early era then?

No problem. About what they were referred too... no they weren't referred to as cataphracts. The Armenians referred to their units by their social class. Nakharars were the highest class of noble, so it would be expected that they were the ones with the access to cataphract type armor (as well as the king's or generals' bodyguards). All the classes below that (Azats, Rhamiks, Sepuh, Frontiersmen, Ashkharazor, etc.) would probably not have cataphract armor.

[Zephrelial]

No problem. About what they were referred too... no they weren't referred to as cataphracts. The Armenians referred to their units by their social class. Nakharars were the highest class of noble, so it would be expected that they were the ones with the access to cataphract type armor (as well as the king's or generals' bodyguards). All the classes below that (Azats, Rhamiks, Sepuh, Frontiersmen, Ashkharazor, etc.) would probably not have cataphract armor.

I also thought that it was so.One thing astonishes me is that the utilization of the cataphract armour.. As far as I know it's nearly impenetrable,how could the soldiers move with that armour I can't imagine..(the same goes for full plate) And Drtad do you have an idea how Cataphract armour was forged or made?

I mean the material?

[Socal_infidel]

@Drtad and King Arsen

Thanks for the suggestions on cities. I'm polishing up the map currently and it looks like it will be Ani and Van in the Armenian highlands. And I'll more than likely be adding Silifke as mentioned.



From Wiki -

"In the 11th century, the city was captured by the Seljuk Turks; they met with resistance and in 1137, Seluecia was besieged by Leon of Cilician Armenia. During this period of struggle between Armenians, Byzantines, Crusaders and Turks a stronghold was built on the heights overlooking the city. On June 10, 1190, the Emperor Frederick Barbarossa was drowned trying to cross the Calycadnus, near Seleucia during the Third Crusade.

In the 13th century Seleucia was in the possession of the Hospitallers, who lost it to the Karamanoğlu Turks in the second half of the thirteenth century, and then it ended up in the hands of the Ottomans under general Gedik Ahmet Pasha in 1471."

Basically, it looks like castle settlement that a lot of factions can fight for control over, which should be good for gameplay and give Armenia a settlement to expand West into.

Cheers!

[Rex Armeniae]

Nakharars were the highest class of noble, so it would be expected that they were the ones with the access to cataphract type armor (as well as the king's or generals' bodyguards). All the classes below that (Azats, Rhamiks, Sepuh, Frontiersmen, Ashkharazor, etc.) would probably not have cataphract armor.

True, except that Sepuh is almost royal and its not a class that is below Nakharars
Sepuh's were 'princes' or sons of the richest nobles.

Dont forget that the term Cataphract comes from cataphractus that was a general term used by the Romans to describe just about any sort of heavy cavalry, regardless of what armour they are wearing. Just a side note

The heavy cavalry(cataphracts) in ancient armenia were alot different then how things were in Cilicia in medieval times.

I mean the material?

Lamellar? (In Cilicia anyway)

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@SI: Great, imo Ani and Van is the best choice

[Drtad]

And I'll more than likely be adding Silifke as mentioned.

Ah, so Silifke is Seleucia. That's okay then, as long as it's called Seleucia, since that was the Medieval name.