Scandza: Total War

[Dansk viking]

1.I just found another site, that they where from around Hamburg.

What's the site?

3.Ops I forgot Skåne ... , I read on wiki that the west geats had a stronghold in Bohuslän

Might have been the Brondings from Beowulf, they would have been settled around Göteborg.

[Harðurāðaz]

I made this ugly province map


Green dots : swedes
Yellow : east Geats
dark pink dots : west geats
orange dots : danes
blue dot: Wægmundings
dark blue : jutes
turqouise :Heruls
gray: rebels
----------------------------------

Might have been the Brondings from Beowulf, they would have been settled around Göteborg.

No the fortress was on the island Orust, The fortress was called Hrefnesholt
and it was owned by the Hrethelings.

What's the site?

here I find sum thing about them
http://www.northvegr.org/lore/history_viking/022.php
http://www.bookwolf.com/Free_Booknot...e-beowulf.html

The area around modern-day Hamburg was ruled by the Germanic Heathobards tribe.

[Dansk viking]

Nice map, it illustrates the approximate areas of the tribes...

I think the Brondings where another clan of the westgeats, which was allied with or a vassal of the Hretelings, and lived in the area of Brännö and Otrust.

I'm more keen to believe in the Heothobards being settled in around mecklenburg, as they then would have been closer to the Scyldings instead of being in the midst of the saxons...

[Harðurāðaz]

Nice map, it illustrates the approximate areas of the tribes...

I think the Brondings where another clan of the westgeats, which was allied with or a vassal of the Hretelings, and lived in the area of Brännö and Otrust.

I'm more keen to believe in the Heothobards being settled in around mecklenburg, as they then would have been closer to the Scyldings instead of being in the midst of the saxons...

Maybe we could have a Bronding mercenary unit?
....
Maybe I should make a unit list...........................for the factions.....................

[Dansk viking]

You're more than welcome to give it a shot, but we have to finish the faction list first.

I found that the Heathobards might even be Scyldings!... This might sound a little confusing, but it's explained here: http://www.gedevasen.dk/summary.html

The Scylding, Frode, was probably the first superior king of the Danish dynasty. It is a main theory of "Danernes Sagnhistorie" that this Frode-figure represented a king gathering the various kings/chieftains of the Danes in a defence against the Heruls, who probably had settled in the borderareas between the Danes and Goetes northeast of Scania around 512 AD (Procopios). These Heruls were expelled by the Danes as described by Jordanes - an event which also appear to be mentioned by Beowulf, Widsith and Saxo. Saxo called them probably Huns (the Heruls had been a part of the ravaging Hunnic forces 370-454 AD). Next time the most likely settlement of the Heruls was Uppland where they were integrated among the Svear. In Ynglingesaga fragments of the events in Scania may have been described as the first wars between Danes and the Ynglinge-dynasty, and fragments of a story about the contemporary integration may have later been misused as an initial Odin-story. The original god, Odin, had nothing with this story to do, as he was derived from the Germanic god Wothan and other elements.

Frode probably became a superior king of most of the Danish tribes and he was later described - by his own family - in a Theodoric-like shape. Later in his rule an event was described in the sagas, which totally changed the conditions of his country. It was described as a natural disaster by Icelandic authors and was regarded as the death of Christ. Probably this was the historically welknown "dark years" in 536-38, which led to bad harvest and according to archaeologists also to some of the rich offerings of gold.

On his way to the throne Frode had murdered his halfbrother Aale and his relative (brother?) Halfdan. The sons of Halfdan, Roar and Helge, had escaped as children - probably to their old Anglian "neighbours" in East Anglia, where Roar married a princess (Waltheow of Beowulf / Oegn of the sagas). If there was a connection of this kind it may have caused the Scandinavian finds in Sutton Hoo and placed Roar as a great king in Beowulf and Widsith. When Frode became old the brothers returned and burned Frode to death in a chieftains hall. If this original story was real it took probably place in the 540'ies.

Roar and Helge were crowned as kings and Roar established the royal seat in Lejre. The first hall being escavated in 2004, is dated to the middle of the 6th century. A feud started between the Scyldings who accused each other to be the basest murderers. Ingeld, son of Frode, tried to settle the feud by marrying a daughter of Helge. This story is told both by Saxo and Beowulf and it ended up in a battle provoked by Starkad. The Heathobeards of Beowulf were not a separate people, but the family of Frode and Hake (Hading) existing only in the legends. "Heathobards" was probably a nickname used by the scalds at the royal Anglian courts - serving maybe at the family of Roar (if existing). As the family of Frode probably later became the ruling dynasty, Roar is in some Danish legends met under the nickname Sverting, while Frode became the great heroe in Denmark. Therefore we have several legends about these events with different symphaties and names - even spread over three different books of Saxo. After this change of chronology Starkad will be mentioned in a period of around 50 years - instead of 700 years and he may have been identical with the earl of Frode Fredegod, Erik. His background figure may have been a Herulian mercenarie officer - an ErilaR/Jarl.

Rolf Krake, son of Helge, followed Roar in Lejre. In his time the Vendel Period started in Uppland under Adils, the new husbond of his mother. Rolf was killed in Lejre and his hall was burned. After some changes the descendants of the Frode and Ingeld shapes probably took over in Lejre in the beginning of the 7th century, which appear to be a century of consolidation in Lejre and Uppsala.

[Harðurāðaz]

Maybe there was a danish civil war?

or

The Heaðobards or Heathobards (meaning "the Warlike Bards"[1]) were possibly a branch of the Langobards[1], and their name may be preserved in toponym Bardengau, in Mecklenburg, Germany[1].

They are mentioned in both Beowulf and in Widsith, where they are in conflict with the Danes. However, in the Norse tradition the Heaðobards had apparently been forgotten and the conflict is instead rendered as a family feud[2], or as a conflict with the Saxons, where the Danes take the place of the Heaðobards[3].

http://www.medbib.com/Hea%C3%B0obard

http://runeberg.org/nfbj/0531.html

If they are a danish clan we can put them in the isle of Fyn?

--------------------------

[Dansk viking]

I think, that the Heathobards were a branch of the Scylding family, which in some sources are the good guys and in others the bad guys. Family feuds were freguent also in the beginning of the viking age.

The Heathobards being a Longobardic branch seems like a conclussion reached by looking at the names, HeathoBARD and LongoBARDS. I'm more convinced by the above explanation, that the Heathobard name was just something that the ones sympathizing with Roar invented...

If they were danish, I think they should be in eastern Jutland or Fyn...

[Dansk viking]

I experimented a bit with the Proto-Norse/Germanic names

This is how I see it now:

Attachment 7638

I would appreciate some help from a Norwegian, a Slav, a Finn, a Balt and maybe an Estonian

The Headhobards position is very doubtful, and I think that the Lombards and the Gepids had moved further south, but I put them there in lack of others. (and as I thought that there must have been some left). This is also the case of the nortern Jutlandic tribes, the Wendlaz (Vandals) from Vendsyssel, the Teotoniz (Teotons) from Thy and the Cimbriz (Cimbri) from Himmerland.

[Rædwulf Cyning]

Also the Heatho-Bards (Heaðobards) where a "langobardic" tribe in germany who fought the danes

I've updated the list,
Factions:
North Germanic:
Scylfingas = Swedish Clan. Faction location:Mälardalen
Wægmundings = Swedish/Geats? location.?
Scyldingas = Danish Clan. Faction location: Danish Isles and Skåne
Hrethelings = West Geatish Clan. location: Västergötland
Wulfings = East Geatish Clan. location: Östergötland
West Germanic:
Eotenas = Jutes. location: Jylland
Heaðobards = "the Warlike Bards".location: Mecklenburg,germany
Angles = location:Schleswig-Holstein
Saxones = location:Old Saxony

Should the mod have slavic or fin-ugrian factions?

The Angles could have the area slightly north of Schleswig-Holstein as they seem to have been a rather large tribe in the beginning and may have had most of Jutland and the Danish Islands and maybe even part of Skane (like the Danes) this is however at a slightly earlier date. I would personally still give them some territory slightly north of Schelswig-Holstein at this period.

I could go through some of my books and copy some maps. I have one called 'Barbarian Europe' that has a few.

[Suppeelsker]

It will be hard to find settlements for the regions in this timeperiod, and I'm sure we will include Kaupang, with another name offcourse. Might be Skiringsalr or something...Dansk Viking

I would be appreciating it I just don't want to have a Norway filled with no-mans land (of course there was a lot of "wilderness", but I want to have some towns there)

[Rædwulf Cyning]

I take it we shall not include the South Geats/Riding Geats as a seperate faction from the West Geats and East Geats?

[Dansk viking]

The Angles could have the area slightly north of Schleswig-Holstein as they seem to have been a rather large tribe in the beginning and may have had most of Jutland and the Danish Islands and maybe even part of Skane (like the Danes) this is however at a slightly earlier date. I would personally still give them some territory slightly north of Schelswig-Holstein at this period.

I don't think the Angles shall have regions in Skåne or the Danish islands, but I agree that they may have had a larger portion of Jutland.

I could go through some of my books and copy some maps. I have one called 'Barbarian Europe' that has a few.

That would be great

I take it we shall not include the South Geats/Riding Geats as a seperate faction from the West Geats and East Geats?

I don't know much about any southern Geats, are you talking about the woman warriors of Värend?

Maybe they'll be a Småland rebel group...

I would be appreciating it :wink: I just don't want to have a Norway filled with no-mans land (of course there was a lot of "wilderness", but I want to have some towns there)

Don't worry, there'll be towns, but I'm having a hard time finding any good factions there. I'll need the help of a Norwegian.

[DaVinci]

Nice project ... i'll be one of the downloaders

You should also check the old saltways, ie. Lüneburg and Bardowik (both, but especially Bardowik, locations in todays Niedersachsen, west of the Elbe, south of Hamburg), which were important trade points between the southern areas and the northern in Schleswig-Holstein.

[Dansk viking]

Very nice!

It was hard to find anything about Bardowick in English, so I had to read it in german, but it seems like a very suitable town, and I will include it in the mod:

[Hengest]

Hej Danskan! Jag mår väl svara på inbjudan då!
Unfortunately I don't have lots of time at the moment, I've just got back from Copenhagen and spent the last night on the street in Malmö, so I'm knackered.
Firstly, for the Beowulf period I don't think you should be matching it with the early Viking peiod, 650- but a little earlier maybe 500-. That era and those tribes just don't get enough popular historical focus, imho.

Off the top of my head- I personally would make a lot more regions for this mod. For starters, split Jutland into three. There was a site near Jelling, actually, which was really important, Ribe was maybe only important later I think- I'm not totally sure I will have to check. Something in north Jutland is right, but its a question of dates. In Sweden I wouldn't assume that the Geats were one tribe from coast to caost, the Geats were not often unified- even early medieval vestrogothic kings had problems bringin the east under Skara. Either make two Geat factions or have the east as rebels at the start date (there is not enough info of these times to say if the east was ever under western control). I would make a region at Bohuslän if only to represent the western Skärgård. I would also make sure that Närke or Nerike is a region if not a faction, the old sources say it was a very important area.
You could maybe even get as many as three factions out of Norway such as the Heathoreams and the Tronds, Romerike and Ringrike should again be separate regions or at the very least Ostfold and Vestfold, there you have quite a few interesting possibilities with settlements in southern Norway.
Also, I would definitely NOT use proto-norse names for regions etc except in the more extreme northern tribes since most of the tribes in this mod and timeframe would be speaking a language similar to Anglo-Saxon and the northern tribes were already starting to speak Old Norse rather than proto-norse.

PS -I'd be careful about the Riding Geats because academics are divided about waht that refers to. It may be a misunderstood kenning for Jutes or for continental Goths, if not both in certain cases. If we are talking about Geats in the far south of Scandinavia- there weren't any. Lastly, the Cimbri, Teutoni and Vandali were way before this mod. If there were any traces of them in the 400 era when many of these tribes were in Roman employment they left no trace a tall despite coming from this area, the general view is that these tribes had either moved, died out or developed into the better known larger tribal groups. Widisth is a really good source for faction list in my opinion.

[DaVinci]

Very nice!

It was hard to find anything about Bardowick in English, so I had to read it in german, but it seems like a very suitable town, and I will include it in the mod:

Info for others, as i think you've read this already:

Bardowick lost its very important position (replaced by Lübeck and Lüneburg) in the (high, rather) late middleage, but it was especially in the dark ages and early middleage the most relevant town, and biggest, in Sachsen (or todays Niedersachsen), the town for the whole north-south and west-east trade (also river/sea trade: river Ilmenau connected to the Elbe). Therefore it should have a river-port, a market, roads and a little church from start of the game and of course wooden walls.

As you've read probable, already founded about 1000 BC, and it was very well known by the Romans.
The region around could be named Bardengau, both of these names refer to the Langobards, who origin settled there (before they migrated south), but not anymore present at your mods time in this area, the rest of the Langobards were assimilated by the Sachsen.

EDIT: Correction, a church is of course not present att he start of the mod, as it was pagan at this timepoint, afaik, but i'm not sure about that, if the Romans had a christian impact in the 4th century in this area.

What's with Haithabu? Already considered?

As for the timeframe, why not letting it end at 790AD, just right before MTW:VI's timeframe starts?

[Rædwulf Cyning]

I don't think the Angles shall have regions in Skåne or the Danish islands, but I agree that they may have had a larger portion of Jutland.

Yes that will be good and more correct for the period.

That would be great

I'm on it!

I don't know much about any southern Geats, are you talking about the woman warriors of Värend?

Maybe they'll be a Småland rebel group...

Oh you mean women like Blenda* (though she is after the period slightly) and her army of women. I suppose I do in a way if you believe in the folklore!

I meant the Geats of the 'Small Lands' (Småland) in general, so yes a Rebel faction would do fine in my opinion.

*Legendary Smålandic leader.

[Rædwulf Cyning]

PS -I'd be careful about the Riding Geats because academics are divided about waht that refers to. It may be a misunderstood kenning for Jutes or for continental Goths, if not both in certain cases. If we are talking about Geats in the far south of Scandinavia- there weren't any. Lastly, the Cimbri, Teutoni and Vandali were way before this mod. If there were any traces of them in the 400 era when many of these tribes were in Roman employment they left no trace a tall despite coming from this area, the general view is that these tribes had either moved, died out or developed into the better known larger tribal groups. Widisth is a really good source for faction list in my opinion.

No, the closest thing to Geats in the far south of Scandinavia would be the Jutes, that is if you believe that they are a connected people to the Geats (opinion is also divided to whether the Geats and Goths are the same people).

I meant the Smålandic Geats, as that is a name they have been called in academic material on occasion.

I have not heard that 'Riding Geats' is a kenning for Jutes (not that I disbelieve it) as I have generally only read the name (along with South Geats) in reference to the Geats of the old Smålandic countries.

I have heard that Hreidgotaland may in fact be a name for Jutland (as well as some other locations) however.

Lastly I agree on the Widsith comment. If nothing else it's a good read!

P.S. I am not sure it'll be accurate to call them Smålandic Rebels...etc... at this period as I believe Småland is a later name for that region from the time the Small Lands were uinted.

[Dansk viking]

There's a whole lot to comment and answer:hmmm:, so I'll just start with some of it

Firstly, for the Beowulf period I don't think you should be matching it with the early Viking peiod, 650- but a little earlier maybe 500-. That era and those tribes just don't get enough popular historical focus, imho.

thats exactly what I'm doing!... You should read a bit before posting

Off the top of my head- I personally would make a lot more regions for this mod. For starters, split Jutland into three. There was a site near Jelling, actually, which was really important, Ribe was maybe only important later I think- I'm not totally sure I will have to check. Something in north Jutland is right, but its a question of dates.

Well I haven't made the regions yet, but there will be as many as I can find and maybe a bit more (I will have to use later settlements in some areas).

You are right about Jelling, there were a setlement there in this timeperiod. Many thinks that Jelling was only important in the Viking period (Gorm, Harald Bluthooth etc.), but archeology has proven them wrong.

Ribe was also an important tradecenter in this period, it was just situated south of the present town, and it's called Dankirke (which is a name give to it beacause many thinks that it was here that the first church in Denmark was built). In Northern Jutland I will atleast include Lindholm, and there should be a couple more settlements there...

In Sweden I wouldn't assume that the Geats were one tribe from coast to caost, the Geats were not often unified- even early medieval vestrogothic kings had problems bringin the east under Skara. Either make two Geat factions or have the east as rebels at the start date (there is not enough info of these times to say if the east was ever under western control). I would make a region at Bohuslän if only to represent the western Skärgård.

All this has been done

I would also make sure that Närke or Nerike is a region if not a faction, the old sources say it was a very important area.

I don't know much about the history of Närke... I'll see.

You could maybe even get as many as three factions out of Norway such as the Heathoreams and the Tronds, Romerike and Ringrike should again be separate regions or at the very least Ostfold and Vestfold, there you have quite a few interesting possibilities with settlements in southern Norway.

The Heathoreamas may be an a candidate for a faction... I don't know about the others.

Also, I would definitely NOT use proto-norse names for regions etc except in the more extreme northern tribes since most of the tribes in this mod and timeframe would be speaking a language similar to Anglo-Saxon and the northern tribes were already starting to speak Old Norse rather than proto-norse.

I don't know that much about this, but on wiki it's said that Proto-Norse was spoken untill the 7th century in scandinavia... You have to have in mind that Widsth and Beowulf was written centuries after it really happened. But in any case you are surely right about some of the southern tribes not speaking proto-norse.

[Etepete]

Looking forward to downloading this mod, and will be playing it with interest (as the Geats).