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Thread: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

  1. #1
    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Well, what do you think?

    I say yes. No taxation without representation. Unless the government absolutely doesn't tax the citizen, and indeed, holds them responsible for nothing, I think the citizen should have a vote.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    I believe it is earned I believe that also leads someone to apreciate the election process much more.
    according to exarch I am like
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    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
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    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    I believe it is earned I believe that also leads someone to apreciate the election process much more.
    It is earned, by paying taxes.

    Again: no taxation without representation.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    It is earned, by paying taxes.

    Again: no taxation without representation.
    Someone needs to tell DC this.
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    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    I argue that it should be earned through ones choice to serve their country.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiljan Arslan View Post
    I argue that it should be earned through ones choice to serve their country.
    There's no reason it should be earned. The entire idea of representation is to represent the will of the people.

    And again, if there is a reason for it to be earned, it is due to taxation.

    And, my most important point, no taxation without representation.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Does anyone know what the constitution says on who should or can vote?
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  8. #8
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Anyone who owns property something I think the founders were quite wrong about that meant that you could be born with the right to vote even if you were a shut in all your life and didn't give a ****.
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

  9. #9

    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Paying taxes means you're paying your way in your nation. Paying for maintenance of the roads, paying for people's benefits, paying for the education of others...all that hard earned cash being used to pay your way. That and you're doing a job to help your country - be it animation, banking, insurance (er...anyone a bit concerned with that choice? LOL), teaching, military, whatever. We all serve in our own ways. But, paying taxes is one way we all serve in - and the idea that it entitles you to vote is the fact that you're paying for something, you want your say in what that something is, or how it's implemented. Otherwise, why be forced to pay for something that you can't determine how is used/implemented with YOUR hard earned cash?

    I just think some people want to enforce the military on everyone, which is wrong. I wouldn't enforce animation on people, or banking. We all have our own choice to make, and shouldn't force someone else to do something we wouldn't. Besides, what about the women? The disabled? And probably others too? You can't keep making exceptions just because they're not able-bodied men. Men are people too, and have their own lives. And I don't want any of that 'expendable' rubbish - I am NOT expendable. Any society that thought I was wouldn't even be worth dying for anyway.

    So, basically, I think enforcing the military as a career choice is out of the question. There are many animators and artists out there who I would be disgusted if they were forced to be soldiers. They've got their own lives, and their work is amazing. All this 'it gives you discipline' stuff...those animators and artists don't need anything of the sort. I think some of our military types need discipline and respect for those who'd rather not live that type of life.

    Oh, and I'm happy not being riddled with discipline like soldiers. I respect people, but I expect respect back, too. I don't mis-treat people or break the law. If anyone needs to be forced to serve a year or two in the military, go after those damn yobs in England...but not after law-abiding, respectful people. If you don't mind, I have to get on with my animation now...no time to spend two years abroad in another country fighting or whathaveyou. It'd practically destroy any chances of me becoming an animator because animation requires lots of work, and constant work. A two year break would be out of the question. Even a one year break. I'd rather not delay myself any longer.

    Oh, I don't hate soldiers - they're very brave and courageous. It takes guts to do what they do. I just don't support our current wars. And I don't support forcing people to take the military as a career choice at any point in their lives. My grandparents and great grandparents fought so I wouldn't have to, and I'm living a happy life pursuing my animation. No way will I indulge our politicians and their wars. Or Humanity and their wars. Both those wars were to end all wars, but they didn't. So, to me, saving Humanity is pointless - because there'll just be another war. And another one. And yet again, another one. I think I'll just slink away into the shadows and not be part of that game anymore. I refuse to die so that someone else can live to start another war.

    So, the moral of the story? Paying taxes means we pay our way. That is serving. Then, we also have a job. Many of us are serving that way, too. Be it, again, animation, banking, military, teaching, whatever. We all have our own way to serve, and we alone must make that decision. But paying taxes is one way we all serve regardless of who we are. Small contribution per individal, you say? When you add it all up, it's absolutely MASSIVE. In that sense, each individual, no matter what job they do, is only contributing a small amount of their efforts - but you add it all up, and you get the sum of all parts. A MASSIVE sum.

    And that is why people are entitled to vote. Because they are paying their way. Or, quite frankly, I don't know about you, but I'd rather that we pay in-store for something, and don't get a say as to what that something is. We pay for lunch - so we get some dog doo. We pay for a television, so we get a lump of metal that won't turn on. Simple, really. If we have to pay, but can't decide...that's a very dangerous thing indeed. I prefer jam sandwiches for lunch...but, eat up your dog doo, please. Afterall, if you weren't a soldier, you don't deserve a say in anything in return for your hard-earned money, do you?

    End of story.
    Last edited by Kaidonni; October 16, 2007 at 03:22 AM.

  10. #10
    Blau&Gruen's Avatar Civitate
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Justice and Mercy View Post
    Well, what do you think?

    I say yes. No taxation without representation. Unless the government absolutely doesn't tax the citizen, and indeed, holds them responsible for nothing, I think the citizen should have a vote.
    What do you do with indirect taxes, such sales taxes, value added taxes, road taxes? Everyone pays them being a citzen or not. What is with people who do not live in the country where they have their citzienship, they also use the infrastructure that is paid by taxes? - Difficult.
    Last edited by Blau&Gruen; October 16, 2007 at 03:56 AM.
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    Paggers's Avatar Me.
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    I agree with J & M, that we can not have taxation without representation. After all this is one of the primary reasons the USA is no longer a colony.
    The only concern I have about universal suffrage is the age limit.
    In the UK the age of majority for voting is 18.
    Perhaps this needs to be raised/lowered accordingly.
    Oh yes, and you can't vote (currently) if you are a Peer of the Realm or detained at one of Her Majesty's Hostels Prisons.
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    Stalins Ghost's Avatar Citizen
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Hell yes. I find any concept of denying anyone a vote an effrontery to everything I believe in with regards to politics.
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    Farnan's Avatar Saviors of the Japanese
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    Does anyone know what the constitution says on who should or can vote?
    Only: You can't deny people the right to vote due to race, gender, or age if over 18. Besides that it says nothing, its up to the states to decide. Oh yea, and you can't have a poll tax.
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  14. #14

    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Anyone who owns property something I think the founders were quite wrong about that meant that you could be born with the right to vote even if you were a shut in all your life and didn't give a ****
    At the start only property owners could vote. Also only property owners paid taxes. But I cant find this in the constitution. In fact I cant find the right to vote for the average person anywhere in the constitution.

    Only: You can't deny people the right to vote due to race, gender, or age if over 18. Besides that it says nothing, its up to the states to decide. Oh yea, and you can't have a poll tax.
    Now were getting somewhere. But how about when it comes to voting for the president?

    In reality no one has the right to vote unless the state gives it to you and no one but the electoral college can elect the president. Our votes there can be totally ignored and meaningless.
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  15. #15

    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rush Limbaugh View Post
    At the start only property owners could vote. Also only property owners paid taxes. But I cant find this in the constitution. In fact I cant find the right to vote for the average person anywhere in the constitution.
    And?

    Whats your point?

    If its not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution circa1776, it isn't valid?
    Shall we go back to letting state legislatures appoint Electors?

    In reality no one has the right to vote unless the state gives it to you and no one but the electoral college can elect the president. Our votes there can be totally ignored and meaningless.
    I guess the 24th Amendment means nothing to you = /

    Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
    Last edited by chilon; October 16, 2007 at 12:25 PM.
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    And?

    Whats your point?

    If its not explicitly spelled out in the Constitution circa1776, it isn't valid?
    Shall we go back to letting state legislatures appoint Electors?
    My point is its entirely up to the state as to who can vote.

    Section 1. The right of citizens of the United States to vote in any primary or other election for President or Vice President, for electors for President or Vice President, or for Senator or Representative in Congress, shall not be denied or abridged by the United States or any State by reason of failure to pay any poll tax or other tax.
    It doesnt say anything about your vote counting for anything.

    Shall we go back to letting state legislatures appoint Electors?
    They still pretty much do. The parties elect them and the party that wins the state gets to have theirs vote on the president. They dont even have to follow the vote of the state in many cases. Only 29 states require they vote as pledged.

    By the way what was the result in Washingtons election and how many votes did he win by?
    I have nothing against the womens movement. Especially when Im walking behind it.


  17. #17
    Feliks's Avatar Ω
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    And someone like Henry David Thoreau who refused to pay taxes in an act of civil disobedience shouldn't get their vote? I won't accept it.

    Taxation as a path to gain suffrage... remind you of anything?

    What was that thing which denied most blacks a vote for a hundred years after the civil war?------ Oh! Poll Taxes, that was it!
    A good way of keeping the poor blacks out of the voting booths, if one would be inclined to such.

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  18. #18

    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    if you are governed by a body you should be able to vote for that body
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    Justice and Mercy's Avatar Praefectus
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Quote Originally Posted by Feliks View Post
    And someone like Henry David Thoreau who refused to pay taxes in an act of civil disobedience shouldn't get their vote? I won't accept it.

    Taxation as a path to gain suffrage... remind you of anything?

    What was that thing which denied most blacks a vote for a hundred years after the civil war?------ Oh! Poll Taxes, that was it!
    A good way of keeping the poor blacks out of the voting booths, if one would be inclined to such.
    If you pay no taxes and have no responsibilities, there's no reason for you to have a vote simply because you live in a place. If so there's no reason to not let foreigners here vote.
    The powers delegated by the proposed Constitution to the federal government are few and defined. Those which are to remain in the State governments are numerous and indefinite. The former will be exercised principally on external objects, as war, peace, negotiation, and foreign commerce; with which last the power of taxation will, for the most part, be connected. The powers reserved to the several States will extend to all the objects which, in the ordinary course of affairs, concern the lives, liberties, and properties of the people, and the internal order, improvement, and prosperity of the State. - James Madison

  20. #20
    Kiljan Arslan's Avatar Comes Rei Militaris
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    Default Re: Should the Citizen be Entitled to Their Vote?

    Here here JAM!
    according to exarch I am like
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Quote Originally Posted by Exarch View Post
    sure, the way fred phelps finds christianity too optimistic?

    Simple truths
    Spoiler Alert, click show to read: 
    Did you know being born into wealth or marrying into wealth really shows you never did anything to earn it?
    btw having a sig telling people not to report you is hilarious.

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