Another argument against the American gun 'culture'...

[morteduzionism]

It's because of these examples why I can't understand how/why people think guns are helpful.

Although we'll never know I'm willing to bet that there was at least one other firearm in that residence. A rural area like that where outdoor activities, in other words: hunting, is the main form of recreation. That's why I'm betting there were other guns in that house, and they didn't help these six people at all. But that's my opinion.

My main point is that people can't be trusted! We can't trust those people who argue that there is a responsible way to handle guns. Why can't we trust them? Because they're people and they can have just as many, or more, screwy things in their head as the next crazy person. The only difference is: they're armed.

Here are some quotes from the above story that, I feel, support my point:

An off-duty sheriff's deputy who killed six young people fired 30 rounds of ammunition after he burst into a home where friends had gathered

Didn't the Va Tech guy loose 30 rounds also? Not that that matters but it is weird.

The fact that this was a sheriffs deputy suggests that NOONE can be trusted with guns unless there is a war going on and you can point them in the general direction of the enemy and let them have at it.

Also, he "burst" into the house. Even if you were sitting right across from the door with a loaded gun in your lap, if someone just "bursts" into your house is your first instinctual reaction to grab the gun and start shooting? If it is, you're living a very dangerous lifestyle and that's a completely different conversation.

Tyler Peterson...had been in a relationship with one of the victims

What the (bleep) type of sense does it make to allow emotionally unstable people the "right" to be armed? I mean, if one can't even handle a break-up what makes anyone think (s)he can be trusted with a lethal weapon? Hell, the astronaut lady was a stalker! A (bleep)ing astronaut!!! Outside with diapers...and we(US) allow any John Dumbdumb to buy a weapon! Like I said too many crazy people out there.

The rampage raised questions in the remote northern Wisconsin community about how Peterson could have met requirements to become a law enforcement officer.

As if he wouldn't have done it as a private citizen.

but he had undergone other background checks and completed all required training by the state, authorities said.

These probably would be more stringent than a private citizens...I'm assuming. I wouldn't be surprised if they weren't the same exact system of checks that a regular citizen would undergoe.

We had no idea, obviously, that anything like this would ever occur

My point also! You just never know what's going on in someone elses head. So what sense does it make to give them a deadly weapon?

The rifle used in the shootings is the type used by the sheriff's department

There goes the 'we can have hunting rifles' argument right out the window.

Now my two favorites:

Once we realized that he was our suspect, he was no longer a cop.

and

This was not the Tyler we knew and loved.

Yes it was! It's funny how people forget who you are when you do something bad...lol

But seriously, this once again is why I say you can't trust people. You simply never know what demons someone has.

Pro-gun people are nuts! They (bleep) and moan about we need to protect ourselves from the government while all the while it's their next door neighbors, their friends and ex-lovers who are steadily killing them. What does it say about them when they can't/won't even recognize the true danger to them? What it says to me is that anyone so delusional to not see the real danger who instead obsesses over some imagined hypothetical threat is too damned crazy-in-the-head to be allowed to reproduce...let alone own a firearm.

[Sher Khan]

Honestly?

I would rather have my neighbor pull out a gun and end me in a hail of bullets.

Getting stabbed by your neighbor is so last millenium.

[Bokks]

The second amendment to the American constitution (the one that protects gun ownership) is one of the ten "natural" or "human" rights that the constitution imperically recognizes we have simply by being born human. A natural right is a right that is neither government granted nor, therefore, may it be government rescinded.
In other words, we all have the right. It can't be taken away. So instead of saying that no-one should own one, let's work to educate everyone enough so we're comfortable with them having a gun.

[christof139]

Some people should not be allowed to own firearms, criminals and psychos in the main.

Chris

[Richard]

Chris, I'm sure that would be a start, but guns would still be so prevalent I doubt that would make it much more difficult for a determine criminal to get his hands on some. As for psycho's, that's an interesting point; are people with certain mental conditions/illnesses banned from owning firearms already? (That is not a rhetorical question btw)

[christof139]

If there were stricter controls on manufacturing, imports, and sales of firearms it would make a difference. Yes, psychos and etc. and felons presently are not legally allowed to own guns.

Many guns used to commit crimes in the USA and Canada and Mexico are from foreign manufacturers.

Funny thing, I was raised with firearms, hunted when I was 10-years old etc., and never have committed a crime with a firearm. In states such as Wyoming etc. where you can legally carry an unconcealed firearm on your person crime is much lower, although cattle rustlers and other criminals and people do occasionally get shot, and stabbed etc. too, I may add.

Chris

[MasterOfNone]

Criminals can get hold of guns easily - this is largely due to the fact that they do not obey the law. They also can get past licensing laws etc. by virtue of the fact that they do not obey the law.

Hence gun laws only take guns away from the people who are most likely to use them responsibly.

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:

- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals
- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded
- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both
- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically
- to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

[christof139]

People that use guns responsibly and are not felons and etc. can easily get firearms.

By 'gun control' I mean stricter laws on sales, background checks, more control on manufacturing and imports, and heavy penalties for supplying firearms to felons and etc. Have to stop the illegal importation of guns, and that would be a big help in taking firearms out of the hands of felons etc.

Chris

[Sidmen]

And yet, if someone in that house had owned a firearm and responded, we might only be mourning 5 people.

Needless to say, he was a member of the police, you know the guys that nobody for gun restrictions wants to take guns away from. This would happen regardless of the level of gun bans. Your point realy sucks.

[christof139]

If you meant me, no, my point doesn't 'suck', but your reasoning does stink.

At any given moment anyone can 'flip-out' for various reasons, so we will never have a full-proof mehod of weapons control notr a perfect society.

By nearly eliminating felons with firearms you will be cutting back on a lot of crimes including murder.

Chris

[Sidmen]

Actually I was talking about morteduzionism. His reasoning makes no sence. Lets remove guns from the hands of civilians, look heres a case where a police officer flips out and kills people.

The 2 have nothing to do with one another.

However, you cannot remove firearms from felons. Its an impractical suggestion, enforcement would be insufficient to remove firearms to even half of the felons out there.

[christof139]

Thank you Sidmen. Stricter controls on imports etc. would help, but would not solve problem.

Heavier sentences to those caugt selling weapons to felons would help, and that is part of my solution. There are economic and social issues that also are related and need solving to reduce the flow of young people becoming involved in criminal activities and becoming felons.

Problem will never be fully solved.

Chris

[different_13]

I see a lot of "well if we outlawed it now, the criminals would still all have guns".

Yes, that's probably true. If on the other hand it had been outlawed at the beginning of the 20th century, far fewer criminals would have guns.

A lot of European police officers seem to manage without guns.
Why?
Because in much of Europe the average man doesn't have access to the level of weaponry that the average American man (or woman) does - at least, not as easily.

[christof139]

Most European Police do carry guns. Crime in europe, Yurkey, China, vietnam, Africa, and elsewhere is high and every bit as violent as in the USA.

Do you people ever look in your own backyards??

Just saw a film on youtube of German Polzei drawing their pistols and pointing them with all seriousness as fast or faster than any Police officer here would.

Who are you kidding?? Answer: Yourself.

Chris

[Justice and Mercy]

Thank you Sidmen. Stricter controls on imports etc. would help, but would not solve problem.

Heavier sentences to those caugt selling weapons to felons would help, and that is part of my solution. There are economic and social issues that also are related and need solving to reduce the flow of young people becoming involved in criminal activities and becoming felons.

Problem will never be fully solved.

Chris

Heavier sentences are rarely a deterrent.

[christof139]

If someone stays in a prison for 5-years it can be a detterent. I have known people that have done so and did straighten-out their lives. On the other hand, it could lead to more involvement in crime.

However, the prison system needs a big overhaul, so that leads to another problem. Another problem is the socio-econmic issues involved that produve criminals.

More control is needed to stop illegal imports, and that is just one step. Better than not doing anyhting isn't it??

Chris

[different_13]

Just saw a film on youtube of German Polzei drawing their pistols and pointing them with all seriousness as fast or faster than any Police officer here would.

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to accept Youtube videos as evidence of anything (let alone a solitary video).

The figures for U.S. gun crime are grim. The FBI estimates that 67 per cent of the 16,204 murders in 2002 were committed with firearms.

67%..
That's over ten thousand murders committed in 2002, using guns.

Home Office figures for 2002-2003 state that there were 81 homicides involving firearms, down 16 per cent from 97 the previous year. Firearms were reported to have been used in 10,248 recorded crimes, a two per cent increase over 2001-2002. Overall, firearms (excluding air weapons) were used in 0.17 per cent of all recorded crime.

Now, the USA had more gun-homicide in 2002 than the UK had gun-crime full stop.

I am aware of the fact that the USA has a vastly higher population..
but that doesn't negate the fact that firearms were used in only 0.17% of all recorded crime in the UK in 2002.

As the federal assault weapons bill lapsed in Washington, a new gun control law came into being in California. State Governor Arnold Schwarzenegger has signed a bill banning the sale of powerful sniper rifles. These .50 calibre weapons are accurate over a mile. They fire armour-piercing, exploding rounds capable of downing an aircraft. Yet, under current federal law, these weapons are as easy to buy as conventional hunting rifles.

Okay, here's a question - why the hell were they selling sniper rifles in the first place? Noone who is not a member of a special military unit should be needing a damn sniper rifle.


If someone could direct me to a site containing comparative figures for gun crime in Europe and the US I'd be most grateful.

Crime in Western Europe as high and violent as in the US? Don't think so mate.
(I'll give you the fact that figures here are rising as opposed to America's figures falling though)

[morteduzionism]

The second amendment to the American constitution (the one that protects gun ownership) is one of the ten "natural" or "human" rights that the constitution imperically recognizes we have simply by being born human.

Are you serious!?

So instead of saying that no-one should own one, let's work to educate everyone enough so we're comfortable with them having a gun.

I never said this. But that's neither here nor there. My point is that it doesn't matter if you're comfortable or not with having a gun. My point is that people are simply too unstable to be trusted with other peoples lives in their hands.

Some people should not be allowed to own firearms, criminals and psychos in the main

This guy was neither a criminal nor a psycho. Neither are many of the people who suddenly "flip out" and shoot up some place.

Many guns used to commit crimes in the USA and Canada and Mexico are from foreign manufacturers.

You have any proof of this assertion?

Funny thing, I was raised with firearms, hunted when I was 10-years old etc., and never have committed a crime with a firearm.

I bet this probably sounds just like the life of the guy in this story, right up until he opened fire on his ex-girlfriend...I'm willing to bet this is how a lot of the people who flip out life stories sound. Nice and normal. My point, that I keep repeating, is that we will never know what demons you have in your head. Never. Until they manifest themselves. Just because you say you are "comfortable" with guns and are "responsible"...does that mean you'll never go on a murder spree? No. Guns only make bad situations infinitely worse.

In states such as Wyoming etc. where you can legally carry an unconcealed firearm on your person crime is much lower

How many people live in Wyoming? 5? 6? How can you even compare someplace like that with any other part of the developed world? Besides, this crime took place in a town of 2700. So what's your point?

Criminals can get hold of guns easily - this is largely due to the fact that they do not obey the law. They also can get past licensing laws etc. by virtue of the fact that they do not obey the law.

What does this have to do with this incident? The guy wasn't a criminal. He was part of law enforcement.

Hence gun laws only take guns away from the people who are most likely to use them responsibly.

Like the police? My point is that NOONE can be trusted to use lethal weapons "responsibly"...

If people want to support gun laws then they, I assume would like:
- to not be able to defend their family should their house be broken into by criminals

...You could use a: bat, stick, phone, lights, etc etc etc...if you have time to get a gun...you have time to do a whole lot of other things...

this sounds like republican fear mongering...'if you don't support us you must be for terrorists'...lol

- to not be able to defend their country should the shores be invaded

You have no faith in the armed forces of you country? Where do you live? Baghdad?

- to allow only criminals and government access to guns and to be at the mercy of both

Once again, where do you live? Baghdad? Colombia? If you're some crazy dude who lives in the woods and screams about the 'evils' of the Federal Govt., yeah, somebody(with guns) needs to go up their and get you before you hurt someone or yourself.

'Fear of the govt'...this kills me, it's as if the members of todays armed services(US) are actually going to attack their friends/families...

Dude, we're a looooong way away from that! And believe me, you'll have time to get your guns way before 'the man' sends his stormtroopers to get you.

- to have no power to overthrow their government should it act tyrannically

...it's people like you, eager for a fight, the rest of us need to worry about. Because, more often than not it's crazy irrational people who fear the govt that usually ends up shooting up alot 'innocent' people...

You're the real enemy.

to have little power to so easily hunt and gain food should a point come when the suppy lines of your country fail for whatever reason

What is the likelihood of this happening in your lifetime? Realistically? And another thing, stop looking at Discovery Channels 'Mega' Disaster shows...

People that use guns responsibly and are not felons and etc. can easily get firearms.

Like police officers? Exactly how do you use a gun responsibly?

And yet, if someone in that house had owned a firearm and responded, we might only be mourning 5 people.

You mean he would've been able to still kill 4/6 before the person in the house shot him? He killed 6 people and then was killed later making the total 7.

But that's beside the point. What type of life do you want to lead where you're constantly on guard like that? The only people who live like that are people who expect someone wants to kill them(criminals). Is that what you are? Furthermore, do you honestly think you would've been able to react in time to prevent him from getting off any shots? Honestly?

Lastly, you've been watching too many movies. What do you have? Bullet Time(Max Payne), you can slow down time and dodge bullets? What type of crazy scenario have you been fantasizing about? Do you think in a moment like that you'd do some slick Chow Yun-Fat moves and accurately shoot the bad guy?...

At any given moment anyone can 'flip-out' for various reasons, so we will never have a full-proof mehod of weapons control notr a perfect society.

Who want's "full-proof"? However, if what you suggest, "at any given moment anyone can 'flip-out', is true. What sense does it make to have such a heavily armed society?

Actually I was talking about morteduzionism. His reasoning makes no sence. Lets remove guns from the hands of civilians, look heres a case where a police officer flips out and kills people.

The 2 have nothing to do with one another.

What type of distinction are you making between police officers and civilians? I don't see any. You'll have to explain what makes the police, etc a different species of human than a civilian.

However, you cannot remove firearms from felons. Its an impractical suggestion, enforcement would be insufficient to remove firearms to even half of the felons out there.

But there's no felon in this story...If every criminal in the world had their guns magically taken...this still would've happened...

So what would your argument be then?

Heavier sentences to those caugt selling weapons to felons would help, and that is part of my solution. There are economic and social issues that also are related and need solving to reduce the flow of young people becoming involved in criminal activities and becoming felons.

Where are the felons in this story? You people obsess over the 'I'm a law abiding citizen...yada yada yada...I need protection from these criminals...yada yada yada'...but it's not criminals doing these things. It's law abiding citzens flipping the (bleep) out...it's law abiding citizens sitting in their homes fantasizing about fighting the government while stroking their guns so much that they snap...and...'flip out'...or it's the kids of law abiding, god fearing citizens who flip out and go on rampages...

That's what's even scarier. You people whine about criminals and the government out to get you but it's not them that's killing you. It's your family and friends and loved ones...

I see a lot of "well if we outlawed it now, the criminals would still all have guns".

Yes, that's probably true. If on the other hand it had been outlawed at the beginning of the 20th century, far fewer criminals would have guns.

that's why the title of the post is: Another argument against the American gun 'culture'...

[MasterOfNone]

Of course the right to keep and bear arms is a natural right - it's called using *your* property to defend your property and life.

[christof139]

Also, you should read more of what I write and many others write. You will never be able to control the use of weapons 100% so that crimes are not committed with them, and all you can do is control weapons, control their manufacture, distribution, and ownership, and you will never be able to control people 100%.

Anyone, the most 'stsble' person in the world can 'flip-out', and for no apparent reason. humans do that you know.

I was raised with firearms, and I do not or have not committed crimes with them, so, I am part of the 'American gun culture' and do not see much point in discussing the matter with ill informed and biased people here anymore.

The flow of illegal foreign arms into this country, the USA, and also other countries is great, and there are plenty of evidence and statistics etc. available. Certain people just have to get off their own nonsensical, biased, and lazy rear-ends and look on the inet etc. for it. Try the FBI and other Police Agencies around the world that have sites that you can browse. Check Interpol perhaps, and also the info. at anti-gun sites, pro-gun sites, etc.

Chris